What do you do when you see a newbie on a failure course?

l wholeheartedly agree.  Every day l wake up and feel like l'm in a dream - because that's what's happened - my dream of sooooo many, many years has finally come true.  l feel like l've gotten the pardon, also.  l want to help everyone, but know that l can't.    This is such an emotional issue, and it's awesome to find so many on OH to share this with..and learn FROM.  Thanks again!! 

You guys are awesome - thanks for all of this.

I've been looking at this post for two days and hesitating to respond to it.  Just as i decided not to respond to the earlier '"Militant" post.  I guess my problem is with people who have lost some weight deciding that there is just one way for others to do it also.  WLS is an extreme and finding a way to make it work in your life, is a job.  Different strokes.  I know that Dr Cirangle has a bible but i also know that most nutritionists in this country do not advocate low carb for weight loss patients.  We have had people on here who have had great results with low carb and also with programs other than low carb.  We have also have posters who just ate smaller and got to goal and those that did low carb low cal and did not.  Here is the thing as i see it.  Everyone's vsg is theirs to figure out.  Are there screw ups? Sure but as you said, then they come looking for help.  You find it sad. I don't i find it folks who tried something and now realize they may have to try another route.  For those of us looking on we don't ever have the answer for them.  Some posters like Frisco have suggestions and tell what worked for them and that is appreciated. Others who also see themselves as successful (as everyone has the right to by the way if they see it like this) went down to 500 calories Dr Cirangle suggesting this when they weren't losing at the clip they or he expected.  Is this healthy? If your much lauded Dr advocates it, it must be.  People do what they feel is right for them.

I know that you Ruggie see yourself as militant.  But i looking on don't, much the same way that you see posters who decide to incorporate fruit or want a slice of toast in the morning.  I looked at you and felt you were one of the ones who would fail.  i clearly have been wrong but the evidence at that point said something different. You drank alcohol at 3 weeks out.  I've never seen anything like that before or since and you continued to drink right through your losing stage. I know that you did so without your Dr's blessing, even if he wasn't as strict as he is i doubt you could find a Dr who would advocate it at 3 weeks.  Tons of posters asked you not and tried to steer you another way, as you are talking about doing to "errant vsgers" . You didn't listen and you're still losing your weight. You allowed into your weight loss something that obviously was important to you and your lifestyle but others can't?  You can't see that other people have things that they don't want to give up.  I'm not talking about ice cream and milk shakes, anyone who has ever been on any diet knows they cannot do that but i see the low carb police jumping on folks for a clementine or a piece of toast.

We have a poster here who talks about how she loves food, cooks all the time, experiments and cooks for her family.  She's Italian and it's a big part of her culture.  Her love affair with food continues and she's lost 100% of her weight.  My point in all this is that there is not one way.  No one has the answer.  There are posters like Frisco who i believe truly walks the walk.  He advocates getting the weight off first and then see what you can add in.  I truly believe he lives and attacked his weight loss like this.  There was another poster on here Sublimate who never let carbs pass her lips, she always ate alone so as to never have to be tempted. Not everyone can handle this.  Kudos to those who can.  Most people who have WLS have dieted before.  They know that the type of all or nothing  thinking gets them in trouble.  No one has wls to fail but they have lives and understand patterns in those lives.  I see on the VSG boards people trying to find a way to live every day in their lives, with their families and lose weight. It is not always easy but they are trying to forge a way forward that they can live with and being told that it is not enough.

Everyone is trying to lose weight or maintain.  I think there are rules but there are adjustments for living.  i know that i have a easier time not having any tempting contraband in my house than someone with 3 kids who has to have orange juice or Halloween candy or whatever around.   

What I'm saying is that not one of us can tell who is going to stall out and not lose all the excess weight.  Everyone's path is different.  Even the idea of the "honeymoon stage" is nuts.  There are people on here consistently losing at 2 years out.  As clearly is the idea of militancy.  Why is breaking the rules okay for some but not others?  I get that things might go smoother if we all suddenly woke up the day after surgery and didn't care about food, wine, living but while sometimes it does happen, most times it does not.  So we forge the best path we can.  And with the overwhelming success posted here and on the VSG board most of us figure it out just fine.

Hi edelu -

I don't actually disagree with you so much.  I believe a more through reading of my posts may be helpful for you to understand this.

The "militant" thread is not even close to being a message of "there's only one way to lose weight".  Please do read this again.  Is it, in fact, titled "You must be militant to be above average".  The "militant" thread is a wake-up call to those of us who won't be satisfied losing the average amount of weight or have been mislead by our surgeons that we'll easily lose all our excess weight.  The "militant" thread points out that the average VSGer will lose 70% excess weight after the 1st year and regain back 10% in the next few years.  If you're cool with that outcome for yourself, then fine.  If you're like me and you want more than the average, I call upon ourselves to be vigilant to get above-average results if that's what we want.  I have never indicated to anyone ever that they haven't lost enough.  I have, however, found several new patients that were surprised to learn that the average loss after one year was 70%; in a vacuum of information from their medical personnel, they had assumed it would be almost 100%.

Also, I don't see myself as militant; I lack the discipline.  By talking about it with others, I hope to foster support so that our strength is spread among all of our shoulders.  As you allude, it is difficult to do something alone.  Hell, if I was militant, there's even a chance I wouldn't have needed this surgery in the first place, possibly.  As you've pointed out, I've had my own stumbles along the way myself. 

While you were incorrect with your prediction of my own success (perhaps you believed drinking wine was more important to me than hitting goal - I'm sorry, I could have explained this to you if we had an opportunity to chat before this), I do disagree with you that success cannot be predicted.  I believe this can be accomplished with a good degree of error.  I would write a long boring thesis on this subject, but I'll boil my beliefs down to this:  A majority of us are here, in part, because we had formed a poor relationship with food.  Sure, there are complications like glandular diseases and such, but I'd bet more than 50% of us relied on food for more than base enjoyment or sustenance.  We felt wrong, or guilty, or bad, or insufficient, or so very alone, and that food started to become comforting, reassuring, a reliable way to feel a bit less miserable.  Over time though, it becomes easy to love food more than you love yourself.  People also do this with drugs, sex, money - they can love these things more than themselves.  This is how I think you can predict who will stall out and who will hit goal.  It's not about whether they still are "into" food of course - it's whether they still love food more, or love themselves more.  Frisco is a food *****grapher, and look at his amazing success!  Why?  Because I can tell that Frisco loves himself.  I know that while the food porn is fun, it's not the focus of his life.  For some of these other patients, food remains the focus of their life, it remains the love of their life, and I predict they won't hit goal. They're too busy romancing food to help themselves.   I would be so very, very happy to be proven wrong and have all of u**** goals though.  A world where every WLS resulted to goal.  Wonderful!  (Maybe someday, with medical advances....)  Regardless, I know others feel likewise that success can be predicted.  And I don't just mean us forum trolls, I mean surgeons too.

While the low-carb thing works for me, I'm not the Sheriff of the low-carb militia.  Like I tell other people, carbs makes me huuuuuuuunnnngry the next day.  Does for a lot of folks, but not everyone.  But I never claim "you must eat a low-carb diet".  I do claim "you must eat a high-protein diet".  I will volunteer to be the High-Protein Sheriff.

Yes, I do find it sad when people do royally screw up.  Don't you?  How can you not have empathy for these people?  I'm sure they did like we all do - struggle with yo-yo dieting for years to decades.  Finally, weight-loss surgery - I'm finally going to be done with this!  I'm telling my friends and my family and my coworkers - and then, "something" happens and they fail.  By the time they come back here they must feel miserable - everyone in their life around them have seen them pack the weight back on.  They're probably filled with guilt, a huge sense of failure, and regret.  They probably stop being social again.  And what's really truly sad with these posts - the "HELLLPS!!!!!!"  the "DON'T DO WHAT I DO"...... very, very few of those people stay, get on track, and get back on board.  The vast majority type out their SOS message, get a lot of supportive help and ideas, and fade within a week's time.  I think about them lost in their homes, feeling an emotion they thought they'd never feel again.  This fills me with sorrow - I wish we had magic technology that we could meet these people in person, hug them, and fill them with conviction, telling them while looking into their eyes "You can do this."  But we can't.  So, I'm sad.

I've never told anyone they need to follow my path.  I'm not even sure I have a path, or bothered to type it up.  As I mentioned, I'm not the most militant guy so my path can swing pretty widely from day to day.  I have called upon people to be vigilant.  I have called upon people to be militant if they want to be above average.  If you're offended that I call onto people to look within themselves and see if they are on track for their goals, then you may receive more solace by blocking my posts.  I would be disappointed, but would respect your decision.  

And of course I haven't followed my surgeon's instructions to the letter - how would I learn from my mistakes if I didn't deviate from his magical plan? 

So, in summary:
- I agree that everyone's path is different
- I disagree that you can't predict success or failure
- I like tasting carbs but hate how they make me feel
- People should be vigiliant if they want to get to 100% EWL
- I did drink wine at day 23.
- People should keep up their protein
- Just because a post has the word "militant" in it doesn't mean I'm the Diet Drill Sergeant.

"i also know that most nutritionists in this country do not advocate low carb for weight loss patients."

Actually, the majority of WLS programs do limit carbs and most of the successful people do limit carbs. Plus most of the threads that ask for help with regain say that letting in too many carbs was what led to the regain.

I don't disagree that it's possible to lose and maintain without doing a high protein, low carb diet. I have seen a few people who manage it. I do disagree that most people are successful and most people are just finding their own path which will be just fine for them. I have been on these boards for over 4 years and I have seen many many people who aren't willing to change at all and who don't get to goal and then start to regain. They lose for 6 months because their quantities are restricted enough to keep the calories low, but once they can eat more, they stop losing. And many of them cry for help and when you try to give it to them, they fight it.

It's really frustrating to watch and it's a big reason I'm not on the main VSG board any more.

Simple carbs, not complex which is what i am talking about.  It does not seem to me that this is a one shot deal which is what it is often represented as.  If someone tries something and it doesn't work it does not mean they are a failure just that they have to find another way.  I feel there is a certain amount of hysteria involved in only having x amount of time to lose and that is what I'm talking about.  It is trial and error, the lucky ones get it right the first time around but all is not lost if one isn't that lucky.  And speaking for the VSG board there are far more successes posted there than not.  I cannot speak for the whole world of VSG but most people who post are losing.  And you are right people *****fuse to change will have the same result over and over but i feel that everyone has to find the behavior modification that works for them, since they live it day in and day out. 

On January 22, 2012 at 11:35 PM Pacific Time, edelu wrote: Simple carbs, not complex which is what i am talking about.  It does not seem to me that this is a one shot deal which is what it is often represented as.  If someone tries something and it doesn't work it does not mean they are a failure just that they have to find another way.  I feel there is a certain amount of hysteria involved in only having x amount of time to lose and that is what I'm talking about.  It is trial and error, the lucky ones get it right the first time around but all is not lost if one isn't that lucky.  And speaking for the VSG board there are far more successes posted there than not.  I cannot speak for the whole world of VSG but most people who post are losing.  And you are right people *****fuse to change will have the same result over and over but i feel that everyone has to find the behavior modification that works for them, since they live it day in and day out.   
I'm gonna comment on a couple of things in your post.... and please....I'm not trying to argue or pic any fights...(I save that for the Main VSG Forum)

First..... I didn't go into this for trial and error.......I was playing my last card.....I turned my body and soul over to science and medicine....what I did never worked....pretty clear when you get to 338lbs. you(me) didn't know what's up. I chose my surgeon because he had a plan.....a plan with a certain success rate and that's what I signed up for.....

Second......I don't feel (in my case) luck had anything to do with it. He told me what to do....I did it and what he said would happen.....happened. The pressure was more on him than me.

And you got it so right.....most the participating posting people on the main VSG are losing. It's the many many many more that drop off are mostly the ones that didn't do so well or stopped losing. Sure there some that have lost the weight or got from OH what they needed and moved on....But I can tell you for sure many drop off because they didn't do well. Why do I know....because that is the worst part about this......I've had many on my friends list that ya get to know a little and you get emotionally involved in their lives.....than they ask for help.... you try and help....than poof....gone....
That to me is the hardest part about playing on OH

frisco

Edit: I reread every post on this thread..... I think everybody has valid things to say.... I can understand the frustrations.....Everybody has good intentions.....

I don't disagree with you.  You speak from your very valid viewpoint because you know what worked for you.  You may not have gone into this for trial and error but what if you'd met it?  I too had an excellent surgeon I'd researched, with an excellent plan and have been 100% compliant and my surgery worked. I have restriction and 2oz protein with a tablespoon of veg is what i eat 4 times a day.  The food thing has been no problem probably because I'm not fighting to swallow as i was with my band.  (I did have some wine and chocolate over Christmas) My weight loss was abysmal, even though I'd opted for the OH plan which is the /Dr C plan which was different from my own nutritionist.  I wanted the best possible results and that seemed to be the way.  It didn't work.  so here i am coming up on 6 months with 36lbs lost.  So i had to look for another way.  If i fell off of OH it would be because I do not fit in with the general pop and i know folks don't want to hear when things are constantly frustrating, so that would be my story.  there are lots of stories here and all I'm saying is there are many paths to success or at least finding a way to make this work for you.  There has to be we are as individual as snowflakes.  The struggle is not always with the desire to do something other than you know is right it is sometimes, your body betraying you, fighting you or just you not having the same blueprint as everyone else.  There are posters on here that believe that if you do everything right you will get the right result.  I was someone who would have subscribed to this view but it is not always the case and i guess I feel everyone's struggles can be viewed in the same way.

I know you say that luck had nothing to do with your success.  In fact i singled you out above as one *****ally seems to walk the walk and your effort and continuing commitment and effort shine through.  But you were lucky that everything, you, your will, Your doctor, your brain and your body came together and decided to dance beautifully. But you were also lucky in other ways, you gained an interest in cooking, you are single, live alone, didn't have to deal with cooking for kids or family who didn't want their lives to change.  you were lucky that your husband/wife didn't keep cookies and chips in the house when you couldn't sleep at 3am.  Or that Sunday brunch in a restaurant is a family tradition just when you don't feel your strongest. 

All I'm saying is that everyone's struggles and hurdles are different and it's not always because they are just  not committed to their weight loss.  And while there are failures there are also unlikely successes that took different roads but still ended up where they wanted to be. 

 
Agree.....Agree.....Agree......

But before anyone thinks I'm a result of a perfect storm...... I should add a few things......

While I was following "Orders" and tried as best as I could to stay within the lines.....I took the time to learn why I was doing certain things and the reasons behind the nutritional guidelines I was put on. And the science behind the VSG....I suspect most of us here do the same..... And guess what.... I'm still here to learn and still go to support groups to stay connected to the process. 

Yes....I am currently single....don't have (my own) kids around and have mentioned more than a few times how hard it is on lot of these moms/parents that have to still cook for families and such. As a matter of fact in some future food preparation tips I will be releasing (not sure where and in what form quite yet) will include some ideas specific for those that have to prepare food for others in a non-interrupted fashion.

Although I love what I do for a living, and I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing...... It was killing me......

Yes.... I don't have those family type issues you mention (right now) but I may just have something worse depending how you look at it......

In my profession.....part of my responsibilities is to provide what we call in the industry "Craft Services" for the Clients and Crew. It's part of the deal....It's budgeted for and part of the service I must provide. It can range from calling in Pizzas or Pans of Chinese Food to Full on all day Catering and on several occasions hired private chefs. The last fun one was to hire some of these gourmet food trucks.

So.... I may not have a wife buying Ice Cream, potato chips and Screaming Yellow Zonkers..... I've been surrounded by "Craft Services" for the last 25 years. And guess where the pounds of left-overs ended up.......???

Sure.... now days I eat within my plan and the Catering people we use know to make me something clean if I'm not into eating what they made everyone else..... But....hmmm.....do I want this bland chicken breast...... or the chicken they made sitting in a butter mushroom gravy.....

And I still have to walk by the table that has the pastries....and I'm not talking Oreos or Chips Ahoy....were talkin scratch made stuff....oh yes....the same table has the fruit bowl and nuts and berries....

Also..... Client lunches....dinners.....resturants on the road.....room service (midnight Eggs Benedict and Chocolate Cake...hey..on expence account!)..... You know what a ****** it is..... to pay for a $250 dinner and eat $4 dollars worth?

I had it made.....love my work and loved the food....loved my life....but it was killin me.... I still have to deal with it......

So..... do I have it worse or better than the family person????   I don't know....

All I know is......I got my life back....I love food more now than ever....but food is on my terms now.....

Do what yah gotta do.... If you think you got it bad.... somebody else has it worse.......

frisco

I feel lucky, looking back, that when I was early post op and on the VSG forum every single day reading every single post, there were a couple others who, like me, did NOT go ultra low carb.  from the time I was cleared for food (3 weeks? 4?) I ate saltines for example. evil white carbs!!!

I also gave up tracking at about 3 months or so. figured out I wanted to do it more intuitively. 

some others have done fine, also, with a nontraditional approach.

and I have seen plenty of posts that assume it meant we would fail. post that were wrong, is what I'm saying.

so you might want to take a deep breath and not assume you know everything yet.