VSG Maintenance Group
My next rant - protein shakes?
Richmond Kaiser doesn't believe in any protein supplements. We are tod the stages to progress and how much to eat three times a day. There has never been a goal for daily intake of calories, protein carbs etc. I spent decades dieting, either vegan or low carb or no carb etc. all of my dieting knowledge took me to 249.8. When I had my VSG I wanted to listen to medical advice. The advice was to eat three times a day with no snacks forever to get to goal and stay there. You can imagine my confusion reading here on OH.
Kaiser wants all protein to come from dense sources because they think protein shakes are liquid calories that go down easily and leave us hungry. We are told not to drink any beverage with more than 20 calories per serving.
Kaiser wants all protein to come from dense sources because they think protein shakes are liquid calories that go down easily and leave us hungry. We are told not to drink any beverage with more than 20 calories per serving.
HW: 249 SW: 229 GW: 149 Age: 63 - Body by Sauceda - 12/2011
"I guess I was thinking about people dieting yet lying to themselves in some fashion."
But most people who have had WLS have lost a significant amount of weight at one point in their lives, maybe as much as 70 pounds. You can't lose that kind of weight by pretending to diet while lying to yourself.
This is what I think: We've all been conditioned to think that being fat is moral failing caused by lack of discipline and even though we may know that isn't true intellectually, it's still deeply ingrained and comes out sometimes.
I see that at the core of a lot of your frustrations and posts, in fact. As in:
Those other people must be having troubles beause they aren't discplined like I am and not willing to make sacrifices....
I think you really need to let go of that.
I decided when I had WLS to give myself a break for not being able to lose and keep weight off without surgery and, therefore, to be fair, I had to give everyone else a break too. That doesn't mean there aren't people out there who think the surgery is a magic wand that will solve all their problems and that doesn't mean there aren't people out there who want the rewards without doing the work.
It just means that most people are doing the best they can with what they've been given and are muddling along figuring it out as they go.
But most people who have had WLS have lost a significant amount of weight at one point in their lives, maybe as much as 70 pounds. You can't lose that kind of weight by pretending to diet while lying to yourself.
This is what I think: We've all been conditioned to think that being fat is moral failing caused by lack of discipline and even though we may know that isn't true intellectually, it's still deeply ingrained and comes out sometimes.
I see that at the core of a lot of your frustrations and posts, in fact. As in:
Those other people must be having troubles beause they aren't discplined like I am and not willing to make sacrifices....
I think you really need to let go of that.
I decided when I had WLS to give myself a break for not being able to lose and keep weight off without surgery and, therefore, to be fair, I had to give everyone else a break too. That doesn't mean there aren't people out there who think the surgery is a magic wand that will solve all their problems and that doesn't mean there aren't people out there who want the rewards without doing the work.
It just means that most people are doing the best they can with what they've been given and are muddling along figuring it out as they go.
HW - 225 SW - 191 GW - 132 CW - 122
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I am with McMadame here - I have been reading a LOT of the research literature about obesity and am increasingly convinced that for most people who are morbidly obese there is a significant disregulation of some combination of hunger and satiety mechanisms, and mostly likely abnormally high levels of neurochemical responses that trigger pleasurable sensations from eating food - these are hormonal and neurochemical factors which, when combined with a profoundly obesogenic environment (abundant and inexpensive highly processed calories, no need for physical exertion) are a recipe for converting people who would most likely have been overweight or somewhat obese into people who are morbidly or super morbidly obese.
I have been observing the eating behaviours of my thin family and friends, and notice that they too sometimes eat for comfort, celebration, emotional reasons etc. Some of them exercise little or not at all. Some of them exist on diets of fast food, sugary sodas and processed crapola - and yet they are thin. (No telling from the outside what their actual health status is - but thin nonetheless.)
I am no more a paragon of virtue now than I was pre-op. Still love food, still make the choice to eat less-than-optimal stuff at times. My surgery makes it possible for me to tolerate a diet that most people would find to be very restrictive, both in terms of calories consumed and food variety, since I do eat very low carb 90% of the time. I have abnormal body chemistry in terms of propensity to gain and retain excess weight and I have to suck it up and accept that if I want to be a normal weight I don't get to eat like my normie friends and relatives.
This is not a moral issue, this is not a question of committment, intelligence, laziness etc.
Yes, some obese people get to obesity through "binge eating", but I think that sometimes all this means is eating until you are no longer hungry - which is what most people do - it just doesn't work very well for someone who is hungrier, or unable to feel full . I accept that there is an emotional component to eating, but do not accept that it is abnormal - it may be unhelpful and something that people need to deal with if they want to lose weight and maintain that loss.
I too get frustrated at some newbie posts and I too see that some people have not had the benefit of sufficient education or reflection pre-op ... but I find that I am less annoyed when I reflect that my post-op experience was textbook positive - no food allergies or aversions, no real restriction when it comes to liquids, great restriction for solid food - it has been relatively easy, which makes me look like an "A" student in terms of following the "rules" when if fact there has been nothing making it difficult for me to do so. I have had sufficient funds to purchase quality proteins, both drinks and foods. I have the time to organize, prepare and pack lunches that meet my nutritional and food enjoyment needs. I have had a LOT of support from my family, friends, surgeon, doctor, and co-workers. I am able to understand and have access through my university library to medical research regarding this surgery and obesity. I can afford to pay somebody to help me with an exercise routine that I find effective, motivating and stimulating.
Other people may be walking a different path, may have come to the point of surgery with different issues, resources etc. It seems that if I am willing to forgive myself for not being naturally thin and for getting to the point of needing surgery, that I need to forgive other people too. I also am not perfect in the choices I make (related to surgery and in the rest of my life) and it seems unreasonable to expect this of anybody else. If I choose to read and respond to posts, I think it is most helpful to do so from a place of empathy rather than frustration, judgement and anger - not to condone, support or excuse unhelpful choices, but to empathise with the struggle and provide objective information if I have any suggestions that might help. I am not all that invested in trying to figure out if the person is trying to find ways to get support for "cheating" or if they are "truly" struggling. Either way this person is finding things difficult, has asked for feedback and/or support, and I can either ignore the post or provide what I hope is helpful information.
I have been observing the eating behaviours of my thin family and friends, and notice that they too sometimes eat for comfort, celebration, emotional reasons etc. Some of them exercise little or not at all. Some of them exist on diets of fast food, sugary sodas and processed crapola - and yet they are thin. (No telling from the outside what their actual health status is - but thin nonetheless.)
I am no more a paragon of virtue now than I was pre-op. Still love food, still make the choice to eat less-than-optimal stuff at times. My surgery makes it possible for me to tolerate a diet that most people would find to be very restrictive, both in terms of calories consumed and food variety, since I do eat very low carb 90% of the time. I have abnormal body chemistry in terms of propensity to gain and retain excess weight and I have to suck it up and accept that if I want to be a normal weight I don't get to eat like my normie friends and relatives.
This is not a moral issue, this is not a question of committment, intelligence, laziness etc.
Yes, some obese people get to obesity through "binge eating", but I think that sometimes all this means is eating until you are no longer hungry - which is what most people do - it just doesn't work very well for someone who is hungrier, or unable to feel full . I accept that there is an emotional component to eating, but do not accept that it is abnormal - it may be unhelpful and something that people need to deal with if they want to lose weight and maintain that loss.
I too get frustrated at some newbie posts and I too see that some people have not had the benefit of sufficient education or reflection pre-op ... but I find that I am less annoyed when I reflect that my post-op experience was textbook positive - no food allergies or aversions, no real restriction when it comes to liquids, great restriction for solid food - it has been relatively easy, which makes me look like an "A" student in terms of following the "rules" when if fact there has been nothing making it difficult for me to do so. I have had sufficient funds to purchase quality proteins, both drinks and foods. I have the time to organize, prepare and pack lunches that meet my nutritional and food enjoyment needs. I have had a LOT of support from my family, friends, surgeon, doctor, and co-workers. I am able to understand and have access through my university library to medical research regarding this surgery and obesity. I can afford to pay somebody to help me with an exercise routine that I find effective, motivating and stimulating.
Other people may be walking a different path, may have come to the point of surgery with different issues, resources etc. It seems that if I am willing to forgive myself for not being naturally thin and for getting to the point of needing surgery, that I need to forgive other people too. I also am not perfect in the choices I make (related to surgery and in the rest of my life) and it seems unreasonable to expect this of anybody else. If I choose to read and respond to posts, I think it is most helpful to do so from a place of empathy rather than frustration, judgement and anger - not to condone, support or excuse unhelpful choices, but to empathise with the struggle and provide objective information if I have any suggestions that might help. I am not all that invested in trying to figure out if the person is trying to find ways to get support for "cheating" or if they are "truly" struggling. Either way this person is finding things difficult, has asked for feedback and/or support, and I can either ignore the post or provide what I hope is helpful information.
Margo - Burnaby, British Columbia HW 283 / SW 269 / GW 160 (I'm 5'8")
Check out my blog at http://www.vsggoodlife.com/
Check out my blog at http://www.vsggoodlife.com/
Margo,
This is really a truly thoughtful post and the closest i feel to people asking questions and making inquiries when they are in the dark. I remember being so disappointed in myself despite having spent months soaking up everything available, still not really understanding practical application.
Looking back on it now, some of it was pain meds, some of it was not getting enough of anything in to be able to think coherently and i remember keeping my surgeons instructions next to me and continually reading the one page document over and over again and not absorbing and thinking, the surgeon had shaved off significant I.Q. points along with the fundus. Fear of making a mistake was huge. It was a little scary for a little while and I knew my questions were stupid and so muddled through and didn't post, because i knew i was too fragile to take being mocked, reamed or just condescended to and so i hate to think that anyone tries to muddle through when they need help the most. Thank you for posting this.
This is really a truly thoughtful post and the closest i feel to people asking questions and making inquiries when they are in the dark. I remember being so disappointed in myself despite having spent months soaking up everything available, still not really understanding practical application.
Looking back on it now, some of it was pain meds, some of it was not getting enough of anything in to be able to think coherently and i remember keeping my surgeons instructions next to me and continually reading the one page document over and over again and not absorbing and thinking, the surgeon had shaved off significant I.Q. points along with the fundus. Fear of making a mistake was huge. It was a little scary for a little while and I knew my questions were stupid and so muddled through and didn't post, because i knew i was too fragile to take being mocked, reamed or just condescended to and so i hate to think that anyone tries to muddle through when they need help the most. Thank you for posting this.
Like Lee, I also went through a Kaiser Bariatric Program, but it was through Kaiser Fremont. It is amazing that the three bariatric programs in the Bay Area are so different. Kasier Fremont encourages people to use shakes in the early months and would like people to be off of them by six months. In the binder, they had a list of resources of where to buy protein powders, their cost, what type to look for, links to Vitalady and other bariatric resources. I really believe that protein supplements are necessary in the early months. Protein is so vital for healing, well being, energy levels, and cell functioning. We cannot survive without it. For most people, it is impossible to get enough protein from food during the first few to six months. At least it was for me.
The reasoning behind getting rid of the shakes, is that research has shown that saiety is achieved through eating real food. Shakes are okay for short period of time, but long term, people do need to learn new eating habits for success in the long run. Also, Richmond started out doing RNY, so the pouch acts as a funnel and fluid runs right through it. Doesn't do too much for saiety, although, many long term success stories attest to the use of protein shakes. So, this is most likely the reasoning behind "no shakes." Real food takes longer to move through the pouch and stays longer in the sleeve. In addition, one's body has to expend more calories through the process of breaking down and digesting dense protein and veggies. Most carbs don't create the same amount of saiety and the body doesn't have to use as many calories in the digestive process. As a biochemist, I'm sure that you can relate to this.
What help me to get the protein in, was a variety of techniques: adding unflavored protein powder to various foods, sipping, sipping throughout the day, warming the shake in the microwave helped. I just plugged along and did the best that I could. I knew how important protein is to our bodies and the necessity of getting enough into me.
As far as the intolerance to fluids, early on, ice chips and SF popsicles help to increase my fluid intake. No, I didn't get nearly enough fluid in, but it wasn't for a lack of trying. I tried different bottle waters, since tap water was intolerable. I eventually found something that I could tolerate. Sometimes, putting some lemon into the water helped. It must have changed the PH and helped to neutralize the stomach acids. Warm caffeine-free herbal teas were soothing.
Mac's responses were right on. People are mostly doing the best that they can, under their own cir****tances and with what they have been given.
gail
The reasoning behind getting rid of the shakes, is that research has shown that saiety is achieved through eating real food. Shakes are okay for short period of time, but long term, people do need to learn new eating habits for success in the long run. Also, Richmond started out doing RNY, so the pouch acts as a funnel and fluid runs right through it. Doesn't do too much for saiety, although, many long term success stories attest to the use of protein shakes. So, this is most likely the reasoning behind "no shakes." Real food takes longer to move through the pouch and stays longer in the sleeve. In addition, one's body has to expend more calories through the process of breaking down and digesting dense protein and veggies. Most carbs don't create the same amount of saiety and the body doesn't have to use as many calories in the digestive process. As a biochemist, I'm sure that you can relate to this.
What help me to get the protein in, was a variety of techniques: adding unflavored protein powder to various foods, sipping, sipping throughout the day, warming the shake in the microwave helped. I just plugged along and did the best that I could. I knew how important protein is to our bodies and the necessity of getting enough into me.
As far as the intolerance to fluids, early on, ice chips and SF popsicles help to increase my fluid intake. No, I didn't get nearly enough fluid in, but it wasn't for a lack of trying. I tried different bottle waters, since tap water was intolerable. I eventually found something that I could tolerate. Sometimes, putting some lemon into the water helped. It must have changed the PH and helped to neutralize the stomach acids. Warm caffeine-free herbal teas were soothing.
Mac's responses were right on. People are mostly doing the best that they can, under their own cir****tances and with what they have been given.
gail
" 
Hi Ruggie!
I wanted to add something that I haven't seen mentioned here, but that I'm sure all of you have experienced: the grieving process.
I, too, don't suffer fools lightly. I have NOT had the VSG yet, as some of you know, but I have been visiting this site for 2 years. I am annoyed by the same things because I have educated myself over these issues by studying advice from others, saving pertinent posts, then going over them multiple times as I know that sooner or later I will be putting those things into practice.
About the grieving:
Some people are stupid and can never be fixed. Some people are grieving the near permanent loss of their only true friend, lover, companion, nurturer, etc. When you are grieving, you tend to experience highs, lows, dumb behavior, and have trouble understanding the "why" of things.
My husband died when he was 34 (and I was 40) of a wierd form of testicular cancer that starts in your chest called Extra Gonadal Germ Cell Tumor. He suffered horribly and died after 11 months. I kind of lost my mind and did stupid things, self destructive things and wierd things.
In no particular order I did all of these things and more: Allowed my 8 year old to take care of me. Having panic attacks. Started doing extreme shopping as a way of temporarily soothing my panic attacks. Took on a 19 year old as a lover. Stopped bathing. Considered suicide. Bought a convertible. Gave money and expensive gifts away to a LOT of people. Got very, very angry over small things at the drop of a hat. Insisted my eight year old watch "The Bad Seed" so she could understand that not everyone is good.
Most might look at me and say that I clearly didn't love my husband, but that wasn't true. This is why I believe that some of the seeming stupidity might be considered what counselors refer to as a "grief attack". A person suffering from chronic obesity already has some issues. Throw in a serious surgery that would kind of mess them up for a while anyway, the fact that said surgery is changing your life giving intestinal system, being denied mostly or completely from their friend/comforter/nurturer/lover, the knowledge that their life is about to change drastically in many ways, and fear of failure on top of grieving, it is small wonder that even the best, most well rounded (pun not intended) of these might having temper tantrums about their changed relationship with the few foods they can eat.
Sooo, the point to all that is basically that the temper tantrum-ers really are annoying, but in looking back at some of the things I have done, it is a little easier for me to see a grieving behavior there.
In the meantime, please don't stop your wickedly pointed humor!
I wanted to add something that I haven't seen mentioned here, but that I'm sure all of you have experienced: the grieving process.
I, too, don't suffer fools lightly. I have NOT had the VSG yet, as some of you know, but I have been visiting this site for 2 years. I am annoyed by the same things because I have educated myself over these issues by studying advice from others, saving pertinent posts, then going over them multiple times as I know that sooner or later I will be putting those things into practice.
About the grieving:
Some people are stupid and can never be fixed. Some people are grieving the near permanent loss of their only true friend, lover, companion, nurturer, etc. When you are grieving, you tend to experience highs, lows, dumb behavior, and have trouble understanding the "why" of things.
My husband died when he was 34 (and I was 40) of a wierd form of testicular cancer that starts in your chest called Extra Gonadal Germ Cell Tumor. He suffered horribly and died after 11 months. I kind of lost my mind and did stupid things, self destructive things and wierd things.
In no particular order I did all of these things and more: Allowed my 8 year old to take care of me. Having panic attacks. Started doing extreme shopping as a way of temporarily soothing my panic attacks. Took on a 19 year old as a lover. Stopped bathing. Considered suicide. Bought a convertible. Gave money and expensive gifts away to a LOT of people. Got very, very angry over small things at the drop of a hat. Insisted my eight year old watch "The Bad Seed" so she could understand that not everyone is good.
Most might look at me and say that I clearly didn't love my husband, but that wasn't true. This is why I believe that some of the seeming stupidity might be considered what counselors refer to as a "grief attack". A person suffering from chronic obesity already has some issues. Throw in a serious surgery that would kind of mess them up for a while anyway, the fact that said surgery is changing your life giving intestinal system, being denied mostly or completely from their friend/comforter/nurturer/lover, the knowledge that their life is about to change drastically in many ways, and fear of failure on top of grieving, it is small wonder that even the best, most well rounded (pun not intended) of these might having temper tantrums about their changed relationship with the few foods they can eat.
Sooo, the point to all that is basically that the temper tantrum-ers really are annoying, but in looking back at some of the things I have done, it is a little easier for me to see a grieving behavior there.
In the meantime, please don't stop your wickedly pointed humor!
No heaven will not ever Heaven be
Unless my cats are there to welcome me.
~Author Unknown
Wow.
The experience you have shared with us has really touched me. Thank you.
Your point of grief in this process in well taken - and I know from some of the postings what is going on is grief - especially when a particular person laments that food cannot satisfy them as much post-op as it did pre-op.
The experience you have shared with us has really touched me. Thank you.
Your point of grief in this process in well taken - and I know from some of the postings what is going on is grief - especially when a particular person laments that food cannot satisfy them as much post-op as it did pre-op.
Heaviest weight: 310 pounds (Male, 5'10")
Maybe I'm the minority here, but I don't mind protein shakes. I think I make some tasty concoctions! But alas, what I like is not what everyone likes, or so they keep telling me...
I understand your frustration and can honestly say I've seen the same posts about, "I just can't drink that crap, someone find me a better option than shakes" and more often than not shake my head and move on without comment because while I realize that some has actual intolerances, the majority of those posts are from people that tried, didn't like it and want someone to give them the answer they want.
And for those that have legit tolerance issues, I can give support and encouragement but because it's something I didn't experience I tend to leave it for those that have. AND, my name doesn't have M.D. behind it and as always... You should talk to your medical posse if you're having actual issues.
Just my thoughts, though kudos to you for wanting to find answers.
I understand your frustration and can honestly say I've seen the same posts about, "I just can't drink that crap, someone find me a better option than shakes" and more often than not shake my head and move on without comment because while I realize that some has actual intolerances, the majority of those posts are from people that tried, didn't like it and want someone to give them the answer they want.
And for those that have legit tolerance issues, I can give support and encouragement but because it's something I didn't experience I tend to leave it for those that have. AND, my name doesn't have M.D. behind it and as always... You should talk to your medical posse if you're having actual issues.
Just my thoughts, though kudos to you for wanting to find answers.
Leah
BUT BUT BUT they are CHOCOLATE so they should TASTE like a dessert and they don't so I am going to puke.........
Honestly, my first reaction to most of those posts is the same reaction I have when my two year old tells me he "can't" eat something, which is "suck it up kid" you HAVE to eat it even though it doesn't taste like a donut.
I must be a weirdo b/c I actually enjoy my daily shakes, I mean I don't love them the way I love Ben and Jerry's and they don't go down as easy as a pint of that did before surgery, but I like them and actually look forward to them in the morning/evening.
Honestly, my first reaction to most of those posts is the same reaction I have when my two year old tells me he "can't" eat something, which is "suck it up kid" you HAVE to eat it even though it doesn't taste like a donut.
I must be a weirdo b/c I actually enjoy my daily shakes, I mean I don't love them the way I love Ben and Jerry's and they don't go down as easy as a pint of that did before surgery, but I like them and actually look forward to them in the morning/evening.
Courtney - Lap band to VSG revision
I actually look forward to my daily protein drink, but I add some unsweetened cocoa to it and drink it hot, so it actually does taste like a dessert, or at least like hot cocoa. I'd have a hard time giving it up if I had to!
I tend to have the same skeptical initial reaction to these posts, and I'll admit to being amused by the rant, but since I don't have anything helpful to add to the discussion, and I don't honestly know whether the posted is giving up too easily (and who am I to judge that anyway??) I try to stay out of it. Some people honestly can't tolerate their protein drink for whatever reason - too thick, allergic reaction, what have you. I vividly remember the last time I ate lima beans when I was a kid - my mom took the same "suck it up kid" attitude, and I did, and then promptly puked them back out again. As someone else pointed out, that's not good for your healing sleeve either.
It might help to remember that some people respond well to / are motivated by a suck it up - pull yourself up by your bootstraps - put on your big girl panties paternalistic smack up the side of the head. It's just hit of reality that they need to make an attitude adjustment and be successful in this new life. Others of us are not. That kind of reponse brings out the inner rebel in me with a vengeance. I don't need a dietary parent. I'm exasperated by the know-it-all posters who warn every surgical newbie they're placing themselves on the path of eternal damnation (or at least abject failure) by mixing their protein drinks with milk or almond milk instead of water (because they're not supposed to taste good, damnit, suck it up, and you're never going to lose that weight if you insist on padding your intake with those extra 40 calories. what makes you think you're going to lose weight consuming 340 calories a day instead of 300 when you're over 400 pounds you idiot!!). Oops ... sorry... that rant was directed at another board....
Anywho... I figure it takes all kinds - those who suck it up, those who don't want to, and those that are having genuine issues keeping down a protein drink. Those who motivate by acting like a drill sergeant, and those who offer support and sympathy. If you have the energy to rant, maybe you'll motivate a few people and help them in that way, while you'll simply offend others who will turn elsewhere for the support they come here for. I think most of the newbies eventually learn to navigate the waves here. They congregate towards those who share their point of view and motivational style (and possibly their surgeon). It's a big board ... save your energy.
... Just my two cents...
I tend to have the same skeptical initial reaction to these posts, and I'll admit to being amused by the rant, but since I don't have anything helpful to add to the discussion, and I don't honestly know whether the posted is giving up too easily (and who am I to judge that anyway??) I try to stay out of it. Some people honestly can't tolerate their protein drink for whatever reason - too thick, allergic reaction, what have you. I vividly remember the last time I ate lima beans when I was a kid - my mom took the same "suck it up kid" attitude, and I did, and then promptly puked them back out again. As someone else pointed out, that's not good for your healing sleeve either.
It might help to remember that some people respond well to / are motivated by a suck it up - pull yourself up by your bootstraps - put on your big girl panties paternalistic smack up the side of the head. It's just hit of reality that they need to make an attitude adjustment and be successful in this new life. Others of us are not. That kind of reponse brings out the inner rebel in me with a vengeance. I don't need a dietary parent. I'm exasperated by the know-it-all posters who warn every surgical newbie they're placing themselves on the path of eternal damnation (or at least abject failure) by mixing their protein drinks with milk or almond milk instead of water (because they're not supposed to taste good, damnit, suck it up, and you're never going to lose that weight if you insist on padding your intake with those extra 40 calories. what makes you think you're going to lose weight consuming 340 calories a day instead of 300 when you're over 400 pounds you idiot!!). Oops ... sorry... that rant was directed at another board....
Anywho... I figure it takes all kinds - those who suck it up, those who don't want to, and those that are having genuine issues keeping down a protein drink. Those who motivate by acting like a drill sergeant, and those who offer support and sympathy. If you have the energy to rant, maybe you'll motivate a few people and help them in that way, while you'll simply offend others who will turn elsewhere for the support they come here for. I think most of the newbies eventually learn to navigate the waves here. They congregate towards those who share their point of view and motivational style (and possibly their surgeon). It's a big board ... save your energy.
... Just my two cents...
5'8" Highest Weight: 245 Goal Weight (Surgeon): 154 Stretch Goal: 140
