The Phenomenology of Vanity

'I've noticed the same thing and have wondered why someone obsesses about getting to a size 3 when they used to be a size 30.  I am completely happy at a size 12 and don't plan to lose much more - maybe down to 159.  I could wear a 10 if I had PS, but shape wear helps keep that controlled and I'm not sure I'll do PS.  The jury is still out on tht one.  At 306 pounds, I was very self-conscious about my big arms.  Now they are very flabby arms.  So I may get them done.   The rest of it doesn't bother me, because I look sooooo much better than I did. 

My guess is that people have this mental image of what they will look like and are disappointed in the outcome, so they keep striving for more. 

 This is a great topic Sublimate.  Before surgery I had pretty much given up on looking "pretty"  I didn't feel that it was really possible.  I can't say that I had developed poor self-esteem as I still liked myself quite a bit, but just not in this area.  I proffered not go "go there' so to speak.  I would just not look in the mirror and and I would put my focus on other things.  I think I even convinced myself that it was nobler to not pay so much attention to ones appearance.  The changes in my body happened very fast, almost too fast for me to get a handle on, I would often lose 2 sizes in a month.  The changes were so huge that I was forced to really notice my looks for the first time in a long time, and i began to like what I saw.  I wanted to start taking better care of myself, buy better clothes, take more time with my hair and makeup, just pay more attention to me and my appearance.  This added attention on my body made me more aware of both flaws and improvements.  Once that happened, I wanted to continue improving on what i got.  This is true not just about our bodies but other things too.  For example, I lived with ugly carpeting for many years and because we could not really afford to change it, just ignored it.  Now that we are changing it, I am noticing everything else that needs to be changed or updated in the house.  You might say, well why didn't it bother you before you changed the carpet, the reason is that my attention was focused elsewhere.  Now that we are making such monumental changes in our bodies, our attention is focused there, for many of us for the first time in a very long time.

I think it is because we ARE more visible. Not just to ourselves, although that's part of it because we are actively looking for all the changes, but to the world in general. Family members, friends, and even strangers are paying so much more attention to us physically... It is heady, and can bring a great rush, but it opens us up o that kind of hypercritical ideology.

Hi, this is the first time I'm posting in this group, mainly because I haven't reached "goal" yet so I didn't feel qualified. I too have noticed this what I call "narcistic syndrome" on the part of those who have finished the journey or are close to it and it does bother me. I can sort of understand it, because most of these people have never been a "normal" weight in their lives and their expectations were very high when they underwent surgery. It stands to reason that when the results are not perfection as they envisioned it but saggy bellies and bat wings they immediately start thinking of PS and how they can perfect the job they started.

The effort for perfection is not bad per se. Criticism of others who don't reach perfection, is. Each person is different, with different goals and different motivation. For example,  I undertook this effort not to look like a model but for my health (which did improve the first year but now is back to being bad.) People became obese for many reasons, most of them psychological. It's not that easy to overcome their problems vis-a-vis food addiction even with the surgery.
 
Personally, I hope to, but don't expect to reach goal. I am disabled by MS and physical exercise is next to impossible for me. My surgeon never gave me hopes that I would lose all of my excess weight from the surgery. His estimation was that I would lose half of what I have lost already, so what the heck!

I'm proud of what I have accomplished so far but don't obsess over it as I don't obsess over my appearance. My husband is happy, so who cares? LOL I've been thinner and I've been fatter. I've accomplished all I could accomplish despite obesity OR MS. I had a carreer, I've written several books, I had fun and I've had saddness. I had a full life despite my weight.

What bothers me more is how critical people are of those who can't follow a "perfect diet" and therefore take longer to reach goal or fail altogether. I have seen almost more poignant criticism for these cases in OH than I have seen from "normals" making fun of "fatties".

I don't understand how people who have been there, who know how hard it is to reach their goal can be critical of those who are not able to do the same. Only a few short years ago these same people were failing miserably. Can't they relate to the failures? Or are they so afraid that they too will ultimately fail so they do their best to "exorcise the demon" so to speak by attacking the failures with vehemence? I suspect that it's the second.

Amalia

 I don't understand how people who have been there, who know how hard it is to reach their goal can be critical of those who are not able to do the same. Only a few short years ago these same people were failing miserably. Can't they relate to the failures? Or are they so afraid that they too will ultimately fail so they do their best to "exorcise the demon" so to speak by attacking the failures with vehemence? I suspect that it's the second.

I don't think it's either. I think that it's really frustrating, when you finally "get it", to deal with people who don't seem to be getting it and who are not doing as well as you know they could if they got it. It's kind of like the people who stop smoking who get militant towards smokers. We've got religion!

The other thing is, when we were dieting before, we were doing something that was doomed to fail. So of course we can be understanding if others fail. But WLS is so much more likely to work, if you work it. So there is more a sense of "You are doing this to yourself and it's a choice" than there is when someone who doesn't have WLS posts about how they "fell off the wagon" over the weekend.

At least that's where I am coming from.

I do think society frames weight loss as a characater issue though. So it's completley possible that, for some people, other's struggles are seen as character flaws and they see their success as being a sign of good character. But for me, it's about choices and I attribute my success to a combination of being given a fighting chance via my VSG, but also my own hard work and -- most importantly -- my choices. So I do get frustrated when I see others making less than optimal choices. I want them to have what I have!

Thank you for your reply, MacMadame. I believe total and ultimate weight loss is more than just choices. At this point I'm working as hard to lose the last few pounds as I ever did before the VSG, and the carb temptation is so powerful I had to go to the 5-day pouch test recently to force myself to snap out of it. I can easily see myself failing and if not regaining, at least stalling permanently. Would that be a character flaw in my part? Would I choose food over slimness? Perhaps. The truth is I am a food addict. All these months of "detoxing" did nothing to curb my desire for food. The surgery was in my stomach, not my head.

At the age of 54 and in a wheelchair, I have plenty of reasons to fall into a deep depression and fall off the wagon. Vanity for me is almost irrelevant. It's not an excuse, it's a fact I struggle with every single day. I was given a good tool via the VSG and it has helped me regain part of my health, for that I am appreciative, but I can and do understand people who fail in this hard journey. I too want everyone to experience the joy I have when I look at myself in the mirror nowadays, I'm just saying that life is more complicated than a number on the scale.

Amalia

Great topic and interesting responses. Speaking for myself, at my high weight I had given up any hope of looking good by societal standards. When I was in the business world I put on makeup and dressed as decently as I could given the choices for a fat lady who could pretty much only wear cotton clothing. It wasn't that I wouldn't have liked to look better - it just seemed that the weight made it impossible and all efforts to be rid of that were failures. So I focused more on achievements professionally and in education and some hobbies and the like. I was always told i had beautiful hair and skin and had to just be content with that.

And now having lost the weight, I don't think I have gone into a major phase of self criticism or vanity. Maybe its because I am 59 and am at a point where men don't whistle even if I do look great in a tight pair of sparkly jeans. Maybe its because I had accepted my flawed physical apprearance and truly did this primarily for health reasons and fitting into nice clothes is icing on the cake. Could also be that since we moved to northern california, we live in an area that is pretty bohemian and nobody is too obsessed with how they look. Even though i have sags and wrinkles, many of my friends are older and have lots of sags and wrinkles too. The only thing that kind of bugs me are the wrinkles on my face that have appeared as my fat face deflated. That was unexpected. Thats the one thing I would get fixed if I were to do anything. Lots of people my age due regardless of whether they had weight issues or not.

So I learned a long time ago that I would not make my way in the world with looks but would do so with brains and work and I did and am proud of it. And while I sure like seeing my slim profile in a store window or mirror I enjoy just as much the feeling of not having pain from the extra weight and the extra energy I have now.

Regarding the last remarks about becoming dedicated to being as small as possible after years of morbid obesity, I guess its kind of like having this cool new toy and you want to pu**** to its limits. But I am not so much interested in getting as tiny as possible as I think any smaller would be unhealthy, but i am pretty obsessed with maintaining my loss. There is a difference. I do like being a slim and healthy weight and now that I feel like I have power and control over this, I will use it. Before wls I felt I had no power to control my weight or eating. All of my considerable efforts ended in failure. Not this time. Not on your life!     Diane

I was just the opposite!  When I was fat, I was determined not to be one of *those* slovenly fat gals.  Every day I dressed as nicely as possible, always wore make-up, always fixed my hair.  I never went out in sloppy clothes.  I was not about to come across as a fat, lazy slob ... or look such a way that I thought that was what others might think about me. 

Now that I am more comfortable with my appearance, I occasionally go out without make-up or even make a quick run to the store in some "Saturday clothes!"

To my shame, I look at fat friends (and I have several) who do not take any care with their appearance, and I am very judgmental toward them.  I want to scream, "Do the best you can with what you have!!!" 

*SIGH*

Aren't we an interesting bunch??

--Dorothy

I know I had incredibly unrealistic expectations: I actually expected to get a 20 year old face after weight loss. getting a 49 year old face with excess skin & sag was a shock that I am still dealing with.

all those decades I never really looked at myself beyond:  fat, look at that FAT. so, now that I am really looking the reality of my age and how it shows is hard.

but that's OK. I'm fine with the rest of my body for some reason.

Multiplepetmom, I'm with you.  I've been so upset about my weight all these years that getting older was barely a blip on my radar.  Now that the weight is gone, I'm kind of horrified by the turkey neck and puffy eyes and jowls where the fat used to be.  It's funny -- my stomach is a wreck of stretch marks and saggy skin, and it doesn't bother me a bit.  But my face and neck are bothering me to the point that I've booked a facelift for July -- something I NEVER in a million years thought I'd do!