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Tek, I hope you're edginess is just mood and that Life's not taking a crap on you today. Sincerely. Hope all is well. I'm holding that - "Movement, as toward a goal; advance." Is Movement equals progress. King George would have been hard pressed To view the Creation of the USA As "Progress," And yet it was. (Still debatable if you're French) At the time- The "Rock and Roll" Of Elvis and the Beatles Was deemed by the establishment as The "Death of Good Music." Certainly the Sex-Pistols' "Anti-Music" Was considered by most as the degeneration Of the musical form, even if it helped kill Disco. Nearly all advances in the Arts Grow out of What was first overwhelmingly Considered deterioration And backward movement. Surrealism, Dada-ism, Fauvism, Expressionism, Impressionism, etc... Yet History, Later viewed such Direction-less and "Goal-less" Movement in the Arts As Advances, across the board. Perhaps that's where I part ways With Jay's view as well. That whole "Artist's View-Point" thing. A Physicist, attempting to use explicit equations To explain a Conceptual Idea like- "What is Progress?" Particularly when this idea applies to a person, Comes up Several Tools Short for the Task. Myth will always reveal more Truth than Math. Perhaps this is why Parables are used to impart the Greatest Thoughts of the Ages. Not the Facts, but the Truth those "facts" merely Support. Whereas Scientific Paradigms are more useful for Finding out the internal volume of a can of beans. Very rarely do Parables allow for- "Feel-good political correctness." Whether Aesop, Confucius, Jesus, Sophocles, Nietche, Goethe, Sartre, Camus, etc... They tend to impart Harsh Black and White Judgements, When they are not illuminating Paradoxes. If while examining the "What I learned while Losing Weight" Theme paper, I'd say the thing that may be missing in the "Equation." Is The Individual's Personnel History. How did I get to the place Where I felt it necessary to undergo Surgery In order to Lose Weight or Get Healthy. Were they "Once upon a time" in a Fit Condition? Or were they Always Obese? I think this makes a Huge Difference In one's "progress" resulting from WLS. A Parable- The British Empire had well disciplined Sailors. They spoke correctly, followed orders, Were Civil and well mannered And proper in every way. You would say they were "Normal." A group of them wreck and wash ashore on an Island inhabited by What could only be referred to as Savages. At first the Sailors held on to their "Normal" And disciplined, proper ways. But bit by bit, they began picking up the habits And manners of the Natives. This happened many times in history, And when the Sailors were later rescued They were said to have "Gone Native." Total Disregard for Discipline, Proper dining manners, No regard for their appearance at all. Just like the Savages on the Island- Not "Normal" people at all. Then, An Intervention! A ship lands on this distant Island. They are "Rescued." Many stories of the British Navy Tell of those who had "Gone Native" Having a very difficult time "re-assimilating" Into "Normal" Society. They had to Re-Learn Bathroom habits, Dining rules, The importance of personal grooming And appearance, Discipline of any kind. Once these Sailors had come back to being "Normal" They had been through quite a Journey. But, some of the Savage Natives, Who had never been exposed to "Normal," Also came along. They also worked very hard To learn or submit to proper Dining Protocols. They also learned personal grooming and discipline. When assimilated into "Normal" Society they "Passed" As Normal Citizens of the British Empire, Indistinguishable from the Re- assimilated Sailors. But what of their "Progress." Their Journeys? How could they be the same? Had the Sailors re-discovered "Normalcy" And the Savage Natives only put on the Veneer? Were they both the same "Normal?" And were the Sailors and the Normalized Savages The equals to the Citizens of the British Empire Who had never traveled abroad? We - Learn or Re-Learn, Dining Habits, Discipline, Concern for personal appearance, But Surely the Journeys Are remarkably different. The-"What I learned while losing Weight" Theme paper Should be quite different, If written by a Sailor or a Native, Yes? Although the Sailors surely one day Fell back into their past positions in life, As if nothing had ever happened. Only a memory. Did the Natives ever feel Like they too were "Normal" Or did they forever live in a Masquerade? Passing for someone else? Sitting here in my Medium Sized, 100% Cotton Ralph Lauren button-down, I have no longing for the Itch of a One-Size-Fits All Grass Skirt, But the memories of Ripping into Handfuls Of Still Roasting Wild Boar On the beach Under a full moon, Haunt Me Still.......... Damn, That Bold Sumatran Starbucks Wasn't the De-Caf at all! Thanks for the thoughts. Best Wishes- Dx

Great examples of, well, nothing. No one is argueing that sometimes things go in the wrong direction, or are perceived to go in the wrong direction, and turn out to be extroardinarily good or result in grand progress. "I'm holding that - "Movement, as toward a goal; advance." Is Movement equals progress." We have nothing to talk about. In fact, since we cannot even accept the dictionary definition of "progress" there can be no understanding. Perhaps this is why it takes so long to get anything done... too many people think that ANY movement is progress, as toward a goal. Gosh, I hope my boss buys that a bonus time. Tek

Definition? Definition is the puppet That Connotation jiggles and Dances To create the Illusion of a Subjective interpretation of Reality. The fact that through words, These semi-agreed upon collections Of sounds, Or symbols, That man is able to communicate At All, Is astonishing! Definition separates us from astonishment, Which is the only gateway to the incomprehensible. Of course, Not everything is un-sayable in words, Only Living Truth. Thoughts based on definitions Are only definite, Rarely, No, Never Creative! Though Words, These stains on perfect silence, Are all we have. "We have nothing to talk about." Ah, Well Yes, Silence is the only Irrefutable Argument. Drawing on our fine command of language, We say nothing. Best Wishes- Dx

Words have meanings. When we discard the meanings we discard communication and understanding. Tek

You may recall your physics professor explaining the difference between speed and velocity. Speed is a measurement of movement w/o regard to direction, whereas Velocity has a vector as an attribute. I concur with Tek: not all movement equals progress. But in order for progress to occur, movement has to occur. My father, by no means a physicist, 'splained it' like this: you can't steer a car if its up on blocks. For me, WLS functioned like a surgical intervention. It broke me out of the mode in which I found myself trapped, and gave me sufficient velocity to be able to relearn how to steer. Time will tell if I am able to actually navigate, keep it on the road, and make it start again if does stop. I guess if there was a test for being a grad, would that be it, eh? Nowhere Man/PH/Jay

I don't know what the hell you guys are talking about!!! Movement = life.... but even in death, there is movement... through decay.... eventually even the gas dissipates so that there is no movement, no life.... but that can take a long time...years..... light years.... WLS increase my movement, ie... increased my life.... I'm gonna forget this line of questioning... hell yes, I have learned a lot about myself since losing 174 pounds.... I already knew most of it except now while I'm out running 6 miles I can actually begin to accpet the fact that I was in denial and abused food so much I abused myself.... I have to accept responsibility for me and my choices and very little else really matters... even the contemplation of my navel... if I could only find my navel..... I hope I answered your original question..... You guys have too much time on your hands.... get busy... go run!!!! Life is really that simple...... Laurie - minus 174 lbs!!

I do run. But I always end up where I start. Tek

I am almost two years out. I lurk on the grad board and on a very rare occasion post. Why?? Because I feel like one of the ones you described as losing the weight but not really "getting it" I am past my surgeons goal, should have been happy. Have yet to reach my goal, and don't honestly think I will. At this point I am actually up ten pounds from my lowest......I got depressed after PS and it has been down hill since then. I wish I could truly "get it" Did it come on like a bolt of lightning or did you slowly figure it out? I think I am starting to slowly figure out stuff.....unfortunetly it is a little late.....but I am working on it Does that count for anything?? One thing that I think worked against me, age. I was 25 when I had the surgery and I am now 27.....although I am a wife and mother, I don't think I was mature enough for the surgery....to realize what a second chance it was.....That is enough babbling from me.....Long story short....I don't feel like I have done well enough to be considered a grad ......Not yet anyways Take Care and great questions! jesi

You do have a vital attribute of a 'grad', honesty. You are not engaging in the worst kind of deception, which is self-deception. Your statement regarding regarding age and WLS is worth pondering. An old friend of mine is a Family practice doc. He once noted that 16 - 18 year old teenage girls are physically well-suited for pregnancies, but ill-suited for it emotionally. The opposite group is women in their late 30s and early 40s who are mature enough to handle the issues of pregnancies, but their bodies do not take it nearly as well. I'll have to think about the maturity thing a bit more. Again, thanks for being honest and do not hesitate to post. Honesty is contagious. Nowhere Man/PH/Jay

Okay deep questions.... I have learned that I am still in transition. I am not sure if I am a grad? I have moved from one weight to another but I have done that before. So the movement I have done with this life journey seems to be repetitive. Although something about this movement feels different. I guess what I do now is think about the consequences more. If I do that piece of chocolate what is my trade off. Life is all about trade offs! I don't think I really got that before now. So perhaps someone put my hand in the socket to simulate the lighting bolts or maybe I am actually just a slow learner! Either way you slice it I do continue to learn and seek out solutions and continue to evolve.