Doc's Response to "Protein Train"

The protein train seems to be working so well for me that I just needed to reconfirm with my surgeon that I'm actually doing what he suggested and that I'm not harming myself. I sent both he and my nutritionist an email last night and I'm copying it here along with his "answers" to my questions. Obviously he's MY surgeon and he's basing his comments on MY surgery and health needs at this time in my journey but I thought others might be interested in what I was told. DeeDee ------------------------------------------ I'm one of your revision patients and my surgery was Jan. 31, 2005. I am down to 236 pounds at 5'5" tall and 48 years of age (loss of 67 pounds since mid-January). You suggested the last time I saw you that I should cut back on cheese (one of my all time favorite foods) and try to stick with about 600 calories per day. I had been eating some "healthy" carbs such as salads, spinach, yogurt, and some whole grain breads. However, my weight loss seemed to be quite slow. In a lot of ways I feel like a 27 month post op rather than a 7-1/2 month post op when it comes to food issues. I'm down a total of 102 pounds since my first surgery. I decided to try and increase the weight loss by cutting back to 600-700 calories a day, eliminate cheese (even low fat cheese) and eat only dense proteins. It's absolutely working and I am unable to get in more than 8-12 ounces of pure protein a day. I eat shrimp, salmon, steak, chicken, cod, tilapia, jerky, and italian sausage (my higher fat indulgence). I'm getting in 60-80 grams of protein per day and an average of 80 oz. of water. I do work out in the gym three days a week most weeks. My question is, if I continue this am I going to do my body any harm? ANSWER: No, not at all. I still have 75 pounds or so to lose in my opinion. I'd like to finally get there and the weight seems to be melting off of me eating like this. I don't drink any protein drinks and I do take all my vitamins religiously. Is there some point where I need to add fruits/veggies to ensure no long term health problems? ANSWER: As long as you keep the vitamins, i would not worry about it - fruits have alot of sugar and thus calories If so, what is that point? If not, do I have your blessing to keep eating just the dense meats and keeping my calorie count low? ANSWER: Yes Will I run into that "starvation mode" where my body refuses to let go of any more weight because my calories are too low? ANSWER: That is a myth; just keep doing what you are doing.

G'morning DeeeeeeeeeeeeDee! Here is my understanding of starvation mode. If you consistently for long periods of time, eat significantly less than your body requires, taking into consideration activity, exercise, etc. (ie 500-1000 calories less than expended) your body will believe that THAT activity level and food intake are what is normal. It will use less energy to do the things we can't see or measure: rebuild & repair muscle tissue, tendons, etc. and you will burn less calories than normal (ie one mile of running won't burn 100 calories, but rather 85). depending on the prior state of your body and how you have treated it in the past (ie, body fat levels, past history of undereating, overeating), your body will react to having less food than what would be optimal to normally maintain a set activity level. Rather than rely upon fat stores (which takes energy to burn), it is more optimal to burn muscle during activity. Despite having extra body fat that one would like to lose, your body thinks of this as the absolute end of the line fuel source. Fat is maintained until the end of the chain...true starvation. In the meantime, it will use muscle, slow down your calorie burn in all activities, and store anything it can salvage as fat stores for TRUE starvation. Now of course if you (or anyone else) says "Hey Lei? ...show me the medical data" ...I'm gonna have to reply with start GOOGLE'n. Ive done a lotta research over the last several decades of being super morbidly obese - information, good or bad, validated or UN, is pretty much scattered all over the Internet. Some of it data is provided only by the typical "dieters" ...some by "doctors" and some by "studies" ... I read, absorb, discard, and file away bits and pieces before I make a decision. I think it's great that your surgeon replied to your email in a timely manner, but I also think you should do your own research on "starvation mode" before you accept that it's just "myth". Although I trust my surgeon with my LIFE (obviously) and he truly was one of the best in the state of Washington - I do NOT take everything he says as ACCURATE and or 100%. Example: My doc came from the old school of take a couple of Tums a day, that'll take care of your calcium needs. After doing additional research on my own, I opted to switch to Calcium CITRATE. Now the Protein TRAIN "Diet" that you post says it's for TEN days. Assuming that's exactly how long you're planning on doing it, I can't see that sending your body into any type of starvation. The data out there implies it's after "a long period of time" - ie, months and months, of eating under the bodies requirements - not just 10 short days. Maybe that's why your doctor wasnt concerned about it? I dunno. I can say that if I had the gumption to try a "jump start" to get the weight loss moving again, I'd be MORE then willing to try this 10 day plan and not worry about it. Would I do it long term? No. Good luck to you - congrats on the recent drop at the scales! Hugs - Lei (gloss over typos and running sentences, Im NOT proofing this beast)

I don't usually respond to "protein train" and "plateau buster" threads, but recently I reallized something interesting... The "Protein Train" and "Plateau Buster Diet" are basically my normal diet, aside from Protein Drinks. I focus on protein first, meats (which is dense protein). Lots of fluid. My surgeons have 9 rules (with admittedly a lot of unwritten footnotes), and the "plateau buster" is basically a reduction of these rules to specific food choices. I also can't help getting a chuckle from the 'plateau' threads. Everyone says "Plateaus are normal", some go so far as to say "Plateaus are Healthy", then all of them go on to how to change your diet to end a plateau . My Philosophy (not that I even saw a plateau) was to keep doing what I was doing, the weight loss would continue until I reached equalibrium. As for starvation mode, I don't believe it exists either. When you look at 3rd world starving people, you don't see fat people, you see skinny people. The body may go through periods of readjustment, holding on to fat for a while, but eventually it adjusts again, and begins using it again. Oh... the studies that came up with "Starvation Mode" were done on Elite Military type guys that had VERY LITTLE BODY FAT to start. Saying that what happens with them translates to Severely Morbidly Obese people is a stretch at best. Disclaimer: This was not intended as an attack or riducule of any specific individuals or groups. It is intended as supportive to the idea and is a bit of a brain dump and rambling. Tek

Its a shame when personal OPINIONS have to end with a "disclaimer" of sorts - although Ive been known to toss 'em in myself. Never could understand WHY people take it so personal when someone disagrees with "their" opinion, if it's done in a respectful way. I, personally, could care less if someone agrees or disagrees with something I have to say - variety keeps life interesting. Opinions promote conversation, including new ideas or thoughts I may not have been privy to.... which in MHO is a very GOOD thing. Great post. - Lei

I am glad this forum is open to healthy opinions and debates. I REALLY do appreciate differing opinions and thoughts on matters relating to my longevity! Even though my surgeon is part of the UT Medical School and actually teaches this stuff I still sometimes question whether he's right (he still is in the school of TUMS for calcium too). One of my favorite things to do is look at old medical quack tools on eBay and realize that people were adamant about things that "worked" that we laugh at now. And, yes, I had my tonsils removed because with them in they turned red when I got sick so they took them out and that eliminated that. I know the medical profession is still not 100% scientific and there are probably things we'll laugh at 50 years from now; I just want to be here to laugh at 'em! Thanks folks! DeeDee

Tek, I really do appreciate your response. I would hope we're all adult enough to have healthy discussions in this forum about what we know, what we think, etc. I've been in corporate America far too long to be thinned skinned over good debates. I think you have an excellent point about whatever we call this ... the protein train, the plateau buster, etc. Basically it just boils down to following my surgeon's plan. Women have to name their diets ya know; just like men have to name ... oh, nevermind, this isn't the forum for that discussion. Thanks again! DeeDee

Hi Tek, I do not think I have ever responded to a reply/post of yours, or if I have, it hasn't been for years. This time is different, I just had to write and tell you that I think you are so darn cute! Took me a while to "get" you and I am sure I still dont "get" you every time, but when I do, I smile/giggle. Thanks for all your opinions, disclaimers and all. hugss Theresa

Now you know, if this was posted on the mian board..people would be hissy-fitting all over the place..taking their marbles and going home! lol That was a joke, at least here people can post without all the BS that occurs over there. I never do stricly protein, and I have had plateaus and stalls many times, I dont fret over it..it will pass..honestly I dont go out of my way to break it..if I am eating right, getting my water & vitamins in and exercising, it WILL pass..for me that is..I have enough stuff in life to make me insane..a plateau is just something that happens from time to time. But I understand why people try to break them..it's almost like they want to "will the weight" away..I wi**** was that easy! lol What i'm saying is that I admire those who are willing to go that extra mile to get the scale to move..I know for myself it'll move again eventually..maybe it's because I am so far out I dont worry as much..but the fluctuating of 2-3 pounds happens and I know it will go on and on lol I also dont do only protein because of kidney stones *ouchies*..all protein is bad for me and I believe in a balanced diet..too much of one thing only cant always be good. But that is just my opinion..you've done great though! Along the lines ofr what Lei said .. I dont understand why someone cannot post their opionion without someone getting offended or posting a rebuttal..it's like they almost feel compelled to dissect someones opinion and pick apart..only using the parts that offend them of course lol I just say what I believe and what works for me..posting a rebuttal isnt gonna change it..and it just confuses me..does it mean that someone elses opinion is better or smarter or whatever..it[s just an opinion lol

Marbles ... hmmm, I think some folks took other folks' marbles on the main board because it appears some folks have lost their marbles sometimes on there! DD

Dee-Have I mentioned that I love this board? Truly, I enjoy the calm discussions that go on here. I rarely get involved in the "protein train" discussions too. Don't know why--I just don't. What you describe about dense protein first is really what my goal is every day. I am a realy strong believer in that and I believe that is one of the keys to success for working this "tool". I was a notoriously slow loser--still am. It is clear that my body just burns less than what other people burn. The one thing that kept me going through the weight loss stages was the thought--"I am doing what I am supposed to be doing and eventually I will lose" I do love my fruits and veggies though! I do have a kind of humorous story about when I was losing and stuck. I was somewhere over a year out and again just stalled for a period of weeks--suddenly I dropped 8 pounds--in what seemed overnight. I was talking to one of my girlfriends about it and she asked what I was doing differently. The only thing I could think of was I was having a bloody mary several times a week. We laughed and decided I could publish a book--the bloody mary diet book. LOL! Good luck Dee and keep up the good work. Oh and I do agree with what Lei said--we can't always take our Doc's word on everything. Nothing like a little research on the side.