Not necessarily [Blocked from the daily menu thread...]

Discussion's over, guys, we've officially been Godwin'ed.

I noticed that you used the Hitler name in your posts & you've done it b4. I wasn't around when Hitler was in power but know enough that this man was a bad man & to reference someone else as being Hitler or having a Hitler like approach to their eating lifestyle as something negative is a little *** ed up on your part.

What works for you might not work for someone else. That doesn't mean their Hitler or trying to force you to adapt to their ways. Pointing out things that can hurt you in the long run isn't being Hitleresque either.

"Slippery-slope Hitler" is an expression that goes back decades and refers to group think type arguments where the concept of slippery slope will eventually drag out to a Hitler reference.

I'm not calling anyone Hitler, nor am I saying anyone is calling me Hitler. It's a reference to the extremes people will go to in either defending or attacking a point.

That is way out of line.

Please see above to the reference. I'm referencing the argument approach, I'm not calling nor being called Hitler. It's an end-game, slippery-slope, all or nothing argument end point where people genuinely start to think that their point is life or death, good or pure evil.

You come across in print as outraged and indignant. I'm sorry if my posts are the reason for this.

The other day I started to go look for the post from the carb forward person but caught myself before I gave over significant time in the effort. She was posting a response on a thread so I 'm not sure I COULD find her, but the point is you will either believe or not and and I'm fine either way.

If the craziest thing you've ever heard of is that there are a few freakish outliers who can lose and maintain a loss on a carb forward diet you've not seen the crazy stuff I have. I watched the US economy tank, the govt start to spend like there was no tomorrow, printing money and buying bonds, and then... inflation stayed FLAT and interest rates stayed LOW. That's just not possible. Yet it happened. A human having a metabolism that thrives on carbs? Sure, unlikely, uncommon but unless the poster was lying (maybe she was?) seems just as possible.

This may be my age, but there comes a time when you realize that others can like and admire you, and still not follow every bit of your advice. There are really smart, honest, caring people on both sides of most issue who look at the black and white evidence and see different things. Climate change, tobacco use, corn syrup, DEET, Vaccinations (maybe? or has that one finally been put to rest?) The one thing that they have in common is that they are not basing their opinion on the desire to insult a person who disagrees with them.

I'm not making my choice to spite you, nor am I making my choice because I don't value your input. I am not personally attacking you if I choose to go another direction. It's not personal. Who do you know that accepts 100% of all of anyone's wisdom and never ever acts outside of their advice? I can't even follow my own religion that perfectly. My appreciation for some things, like wine, make it worth the risk, to me, to incorporate them into my diet. Nowhere in there were words or implications of "I don't care what you think" or "I'm special and it doesn't apply to me". I do care what you think. I am very aware of my vulnerability to failure.

"Accountability" I'm pretty sure there are no firm rules on the menu board. Yep, I eat off my plan. I'm pretty sure most of us do that. There are occasionally reasons, like my effort to increase my protein on hard workout days, and there is often antidotal commentary on my part telling why it happened that I don't intend to be justification, just my story of the event. I'm not very apologetic about it because I figure life happens and it's the forest not the trees. I track every bite I take, and I review every day's calories and look at three to five day averages. I'm eating far more than you would advise, far less than my NUT would advise, and while it's slow going, I'm losing weight and getting fit.

You talk about science - do you REALLY believe that 100% of our NUTS are ignorant, or worse, intentionally misleading us in their recommendations? Do you believe that every single one of them ignores the data to keep pushing their patients towards complex carbohydrates, a mix of fresh greens and fruit? Or is it possible that they have a wider perspective because of their patient population? Is it possible that they're reading complex medical studies that we haven't found in the public domain? Is it possible that they have several patients out ten or more years that are doing very well while including complex carbs in their diets?

Maybe the reason that the only vets on here are the ones who insist that there is ONLY one way , is because other vets have simply shrugged and left after being attacked and belittled (bullied?).

But back to you. I actually agree with most, if not all, of what you propose from a healthy diet. I think you're smart, well informed, speaking from personal experience, and I give weight to your advice. I am probably more adherent to your advice than I am to my surgeon's.

I'm sorry that you are so deeply insulted and outraged by few areas where we disagree. I'm sorry that my daily eff-ups are offensive, and that you see them as a sign that I'm not taking this gift of WLS seriously. I'm sorry that having someone of my irreverence is causing you such deep angst. We have far more in common than most, yet you can't accept me, let alone like me because of this.

Intolerance to others you consider ignorant and unwilling "to learn" aka obey your direction and fully comply with your rules, isn't going to encourage participation on these boards from those who might have some great insight, ideas, or maybe just good warnings. And attacking me isn't going to create a safe place for those who are struggling to come for help.

What if you could be BOTH firm about your beliefs yet STILL be tolerant of those who disagree?

>> I watched the US economy tank, the govt start to spend like there was no tomorrow, printing money and buying bonds, and then... inflation stayed FLAT and interest rates stayed LOW. That's just not possible. Yet it happened...

The biological sciences, unlike economics and political science, follow set, predictable rules and can be analyzed using the scientific method. Apples and oranges here.

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>> There are really smart, honest, caring people on both sides of most issue who look at the black and white evidence and see different things.

Just because they see something doesn't mean it's what the picture DOES (or should) show. Vaccines do not cause autism, but there are people *****main convinced by discredited research and unscientific observation.

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>> Climate change, tobacco use, corn syrup, DEET, Vaccinations...

I suspect that you haven't spent much time talking with people who deny global warming or are anti-vaxx. There is a LOT of sentiment from those folks that those who fall on the side of science. Parents who vaccinate are allegedly child-abusers, etc., folks who believe in climate change are dirty hippies, and that's only the start of it.

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>> Who do you know that accepts 100% of all of anyone's wisdom and never ever acts outside of their advice?

Many, MANY successful vets here were absolutely, completely compliant to the (scientifically-backed) recommendations made by their surgeons.

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>> Yep, I eat off my plan. I'm pretty sure most of us do that.

Speak for yourself. The people here who are the most successful do not stray from their maintenance rules; this is exactly why they remain successful.

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>> Is it possible that they have several patients out ten or more years that are doing very well while including complex carbs in their diets?

A group of "several patients" is not statistically significant and cannot be used to draw any sort of reliable conclusion or recommendation. Anecdotal evidence does not science make.

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>> Or is it possible that they have a wider perspective because of their patient population?

More likely that this perspective is overly broad because of a lack of familiarity with OUR population.

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>> Is it possible that they're reading complex medical studies that we haven't found in the public domain?

Unlikely. If you're aware of the educational requirements for one to label him/herself a nutritionist, continuing education is not often a component.

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>> Maybe the reason that the only vets on here are the ones who insist that there is ONLY one way , is because other vets have simply shrugged and left after being attacked and belittled (bullied?).

Or maybe the vets' insistence that there is "ONLY one way" is because that's what the medical literature tells us. Andy maybe other vets aren't here because they don't follow that solid scientific advice, regain, and are embarrassed.

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>> Intolerance to others you consider ignorant and unwilling "to learn" isn't going to encourage participation on these boards...

Participation is great. Misinformation and propagation of myths is not.

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>> And attacking me isn't going to create a safe place for those who are struggling to come for help.

Nobody has attacked you personally. Many people have raised objections to your BEHAVIOR, which is far different than (alleged) bullying or any sort of personal insult, neither of which I have seen. A TRULY safe space, IMO, is one where people can be given factual information about their screw-ups (read: behavior not in line with currently-established best practices) and thereby giving those people the best possible chance at success.

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>> What if you could be BOTH firm about your beliefs yet STILL be tolerant of those who disagree?

This isn't about belief, this is about established medical recommendations-- FACTS.

******' A. Right on.

Can you point me to the studies large studies that follow patients out five or more years, and counter all the data given out to patients through the Centers of Excellence?

I mean studies that show that carbs MUST be under 50g, that Protein MUST be at 100, that ZERO alcohol is allowed.

I'm guessing, having read many medical studies myself related to my BRCAII mutation, that there are actually bell curves around any of these data points. Some bell curves will be steep some will be broad, but all will be bells.

None the less, I'll read any of this science you can provide. Thankfully I work in a field that allows me to access most at no charge, but even if they aren't free, my doctor's office will happily access them for me if I can provide the study name, date, and publisher.

I am not your personal reference librarian.

I suspect that no number of studies I provide will influence your thinking. As you have stated in the past, you are making choices for your own body and those choices are not my responsibility.

Good luck.