Firearms

Actually that was my whole point. It was a different time with different results. It was effective. So why would going even further away from that help us?

The idea that school shootings are a new thing is horse**** Here's a link to a Wikipedia article (Yeah, I know it's not a scholarly resource, but for simple lists of events it'll do.) You can see that school shootings are nothing at all new, and have been happening in the US since the 1700s! What is new is that the technology has improved to the point where it's much easier to kill multiple people at a time, especially handguns. Pretty hard to shoot a bunch of folks with a bolt action rifle. In addition, the media saturation makes it much easier for us to hear about these events. Once upon a time, unless it happened in your town or maybe your state, it just wasn't something that made it to the local paper or the 6 o'clock news.

Well I looked over the link. Which may not be 100% accurate because anyone can add to it. There were incidents of native Americans shooting children during colonial times. There were children being killed during war time. That doesn't all count. Also many of them were incidents of people not even children at the school. Then you get to the 90's and the incidents triple over what they were. Even in the 2010's which is not even 4 years yet the list was huge. So I would something different happened then just technology letting people kill multiple people at a time. So I would say something else is going on here. Also there have been cases where an armed person stopped deaths from happening yet you don't see it much on the news. Also Detroit and NYC have made guns illegal. Have you murder rates and crime rates there. D.C. is the murder capitol of the world guess what is illegal there? So I am saying making them all illegal will not help.

(Note: I am not a statistician or mathematician, so anything I'm saying here may be incorrect. It's what I see when I look at the numbers out there, however. If I'm wrong and someone wants to go to the effort of showing me where, I'd welcome it.)

First, bbarrigar, let me quote you from one of your previous posts: "You realize that in the 50's they had shooting ranges in schools and gun shooting clubs? I don't think they eliminated them until the 80's. Yet you did not see school shootings." Now it's hard to know exactly what you're trying to say with this statement. Are you trying to say that there were no school shootings? If that's the case, then whatever quibbles you may have with the list I linked, it still proves this statement wrong. Are you trying to say that there wasn't as much media coverage of school shootings, so we did not "see" them? If that's the case, then you're agreeing with my statement about increased media coverage bringing school shootings more to the forefront.

More quotes from you, and my responses:

-Well I looked over the link. Which may not be 100% accurate because anyone can add to it.

Yes, that's how Wikipedia works. However you did see that the vast majority of incidents were footnoted to include the documentation of the stories in newspapers, yes?

-There were incidents of native Americans shooting children during colonial times. There were children being killed during war time. That doesn't all count. Also many of them were incidents of people not even children at the school. 

Ok, how about you lay out the criteria. What, exactly, should be included in the statistics for what you're claiming?

-Then you get to the 90's and the incidents triple over what they were.

I did a rough count. In the 1960s there were 17 incidents. In the 1970s, there were 22 incidents (I eliminated Kent State for what I believe are obvious reasons.) In the 1980s, 30 incidents. In the 1990s, there were 40 incidents. 40 is not triple 30. 40 is definitely an increase, but how much of an increase? The percentage changes from one decade to the next are as follows:

1960s to 1970s - 29% increase

1970s to 1980s - 36% increase

1980s to 1990s - 33% increase

The percentage change in school shootings was actually lower from the 80s to the 90s than it was from the 70s to the 80s.

In the 2000s, there were 48 listed shootings. That's 8 more than in the 1990s, for a 20% increase. And so far, in the 2010s, there have been 87 shootings. That's the first significant spike in the series starting with the 1960s. (I'd still blame media attention for the increase due to copycat issues, but I'm too tired at the moment to look into any data on that.)

- So I would something different happened then just technology letting people kill multiple people at a time. So I would say something else is going on here.

Here's a graph of the number of casualties per incident of school shootings in the US. Do you see a trend?

After seeing the numbers above, what specifically do you think is going on? I think there's evidence that proves that there are more people being killed per incident. Also, consider this: The number of school shootings has gone up over the years, that's true. Can you think of anything else that's gone up over the years? How about the population of the US? And, while I have no proof of this at the moment, how about the number of guns in private hands in the US? I suspect that's risen as well. It would be very interesting to compare the rate of change in the population and gun ownership to the numbers of school shootings, don't you think?

- Also there have been cases where an armed person stopped deaths from happening yet you don't see it much on the news.

Citations, please. How many times has that happened? Not counting police officers, how many times over the years have armed citizens prevented someone's death? That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Let's see how many people have been saved by guns versus how many people have been killed or injured by them.

- Also Detroit and NYC have made guns illegal. Have you murder rates and crime rates there. D.C. is the murder capitol of the world guess what is illegal there? So I am saying making them all illegal will not help.

I've never said that all guns should be made illegal. However, you seem to be making an argument that once upon a time, gun violence wasn't an issue and that it's much worse now. From the information I've seen, those statements aren't borne out.

While I will argue that gun violence is no worse than it's been once you control for population, etc. I won't argue that the United States has a terrible problem with gun violence in comparison to the rest of the world. Here's a sad little graphic:

(graph from Business Insider)

 Lastly I'd like to thank you for the discussion, sincerely. My curiosity about my own positions and whether I could find evidence that supported them led me down some interesting rabbit holes, and I learned some very interesting things.

Oh, and by the way, the murder rate in Washington, DC is at its lowest rate since 1961. 52 years. So much for being the "murder capitol of the world".

Murder in DC Lowest in Half a Century

Yes it has gone down but it is still number 8 in murder rates of cities with 500000 or more people. Detroit is number one like I mentioned. Chicago is right up there as well. murder So I give you credit you did lots of research. I really am not going to spend that much time to find data to keep this going. I applaud you for all of your research. I am glad you enjoyed. You did not change my mind in any way but I am all for someone who can intelligently argue with me on a matter.

Sorry you lost me with the total over exaggeration of the soccer mom scenario, since living in Texas for the past 30+  years doesn't bring to mind to many incidents that slightly resemble this.

I totally agree that lax parents are often the stem of the problem when you see minors committing crimes.  Aurora did not really fit into the same category since Holmes was what 24 or 25 at the time of his crimes.  And while you may not hear as many gun related violent acts there was the beheading of the British soldier recently. Crimes are everywhere, look up stabbings in Japan and China.  Hell one Houston woman just received a life sentence for stabbing to death her bf with a stiletto.

Yes there needs to be a stricter guidelines but more so, stricter consequences.

I must have lived in a different area than you...the psycho soccer Moms in our master planned community could easily have snapped over the things I mentioned.  Ridiculous fights would erupt over golf cars cruising the neighborhood, parking in front of each others perfectly pristine homes and panic would flash through the neighborhood FB site if there was a person of color seen in a strange car.  Anyways, I never said there were any  incidents....just said I felt more unsafe in TX than in Navi Mumbai or one of the many countries we have visited.

I doubt the total crimes committed in many countries are close to just the gun crimes in America.  Look at some of the statistics posted today.

BTW, I grew up and went to college in TX then returned to Houston for 5 long years so I do know what it is all about down there.

I'm gonna guess...Kingwood?

Naw she mentioned (assuming a female) the Woodlands area... I live in the Woodlands area and while I'll agree the mom's are snotty and will fight over a whole lot of nothing, I've never thought that they were so psychotic that they would whip out a gun and start shooting.  It's primarily cat fights... these women would never  dirty their hands, they'd hire out.

On another observation about the area, while most America is overweight it seems like there is a much much lower percentage of heavy people in the Woodlands... tennis and golf outfits are worn everywhere, and yes there is a golf cart line at the school to pick up their children.