I need your opinion

Dear OH'ers,

Recently, at a support group meeting that I attend (not LIPO...my group), someone was asked not to return to the meeting and to seek psychiatric help by the RN and a social worker who run the group. When he questioned why, he was not given a specific example but told that several people have complained about his behavior.  

Last Saturday, a few concerned members spoke up about the situation and were not given any specific info.

Pre-surgery (and for some of us post-surgery as well)have witnessed first hand how people are discriminated against with regards to our weight. In my book, this acts hand in hand with that and it is unacceptable. Apparently, something has been said to make the management of the group feel that our buddy is a threat to the group. Such use of "hearsay evidence" in court is generally not allowed and in my opinion should not be allowed in this instance as well. Additionally, as many noted at the last meeting, this may be extremely detrimental for him.

The fact is that this has given numerous people from this hospital support group meeting a "bad taste" in their mouths. Sadly, I believe this will hurt the continued future success of this meeting and location. We (the weight loss surgery patients) are the success stories and help that meeting survive. 

I desperately believe in group support and hope and pray that this incident does not stop people from attending meetings, but to find one that better suits their needs.

Please feel free to share your thoughts on this subject.

Hi,  Maryellen, nice to "see you" again.  I met you at one of the GS groups a few months back.     I have attended the GS group about five times, beginning in late April of this year.  I can only come up with one person, a man, I believe he is a long-time support group attendee at Good Sam, (forget his name)...who is (now) thin and tall, sort of black or salt and pepper type hair, who would fit the bill of who you are speaking about.

I've missed the last few months but planned on attending the next session.  I found your post interesting.

I personally have found this person to be (if it is the same one you refer to)...  abrasive and counter-productive to the group -- in that he has to comment on everyone (and I mean EVERYONE's input; he tends to put down lap-band surgery versus gastric bypass, comes across as a know-it-all about every and any subject and basically turned myself and another new member off from returning.  Whenever he would (once again) interject himself into the topic at hand, I turned to my friend and we both rolled our eyes.

Despite the fact that we are all asked to "be quiet and respectful" when group members are telling their stories, he chuckles or shakes his head, or mutters under his breath. 

I also believe I heard him jokingly offer to date some of the ladies there; as I recall he is a single man.  That is inappropriate, in my opinion.

Now, I have never spoken to anyone at Good Sam or the doctor's office regarding this person because I did not have surgery through GS but rather NYU's program, so I figured it was none of my affair, but I had hoped that someone would take this person in hand.  I found him very disruptive and offputting.

Group banishment was not the route I would have expected -- but I am certainly not surprised.

Of course, if the person I am thinking of is NOT the person - then I am at a loss.  But there are not too many men attending the group so I think I am right on target.

Is this no doubt upsetting to him, and other members?  I guess it is.  But when you are in a public support group you need to follow certain appropriate protocols and behaviors.

I don't believe it is anyone's business exactly why he has been asked to leave; in fact legally they may not be able to say anything at all beyond the bare minimum.

The purpose of the group is provide education and support for people who are going to have, or who have had, weight loss surgery.  Any other issues with the group need to be kept offline and are not really germane.

 

 

 On August 25, 2009 at 6:26 PM Pacific Time, JennaVictoria wrote:
"I don't believe it is anyone's business exactly why he has been asked to leave; in fact legally they may not be able to say anything at all beyond the bare minimum."
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How about telling the member himself what it was that he did that requires such drastic measure??!?!? What is it that he "needs to work on and come back with medical proof"??? ATLEAST LET ***HIM*** know!!!!

I'm completely disallusioned with the management. True: they have a right to ask a person to leave...but they also owe it to the person to be told WHY. Not a vague, unfounded reason.....but hard facts.

It makes the group seem unsupportive, judgemental, and nothing but a mere sales pitch for the attending physicians.

I know the person that this is about and it may or may not be the same person you speak of.

All of the people who attend the groups have their own little clique of friends.  I stopped sitting in a specific area because others talked throughout the meeting and I found it distracting,  Not the person to whom this post is about. Yes some people are more loud or outspoken then others.

I am going to state the obvious and say everyone has opinions and they are entitled to them weather it be about people or procedures.  The person that this issue is about is a very nice man,  he is not perfect nor are any of us. He is loud because that is who he is. A know it all, not at all, and yes he is enthusiastic about all aspects of recovery and working his surgery.

I am sorry to hear your experience was not as pleasant as it has been for me.  I found a lot of friends in the group that I hope to keep as time goes on.  The person in question is not down on any surgery as long as it works for the person getting it.  

However rolling your eyes is your right but also not respectful to people, if you have an issue with me for example I would ask that you seek me out and let me know.   Maybe this person is unaware of his issues.  But I know a LOT of the people in the Good Sam group are close friends and they share their lives outside of the meetings.  As far as a dating comment, well he is single and always accused of dating people in the group.  He is friends with a lot of us and again we share time outside of the meetings at Good Sam. I am sure it was all in fun and not meant to offend anyone.

The issues that were stated for his being asked to leave had nothing to do with his behavior at meetings, which should have been addressed at the time they occured if thats what the banishment were about.  Since it is not, then I am unsure as to who has the right to take such drastic measures.

If you do go back to Good Sam suppoirt meetings you may find you like them more or less.  Most of us who have been going regularly also became active in the varous activities of the group such as the fashion show and trying to arrange outings for us now that we can do them. This is how we became friends.   And to see someone hurt like this person has been to me is unfair.  The question as to what is wrong with me has gone unanswered.  If you tell someone that they have a problem then you should be ready to back it up with why, this has not been done.  

To end if you have a problem with someone as mature responsible adults I would do is talk to the person and ask them to help you by not doing whatever it is they are doing to upset you.  They of course have the right to decline that request based on their maturity level.  But in this type of forum I sincerly doubt that a conversation would not net some results. But there is also the fact that we are who we are and some of us like myself are loud and outspoken.  I know i have spoken out about the band since i had one,  and it caused so much damage to my stomach that the scar rissue I have caused issues during revision surgery.  So again we are all entitled to our opinions.

I do agree that peopke should be respectful of each other during the support meetings.  We all want to learn and hear what is being said as well as being heard.  Sometimes however we get excited or heated about what is being said.

Roe

Thanks Maryellen. This meeting was very disappointing and I feel over the last few months the support meetings at Good Sam have not been beneficial to the Post Ops. I feel I have not gotten much out of the meetings (seems to be around pre-op or the same topics) and therefore, have a bad taste in my mouth when there is a post op patient speaking their opinion and then told they speak to much or out of line. Isn't it said that the first hr should be dedicated to the Post Ops talking about issues and hearing from their co-patients for advice and opinions? I feel sometimes we scoot around questions and we may need more information and there is none given. Suggestion...maybe if the same issues come up then why don't we keep a journal and do some research or invite a professional to come in and help discuss with us. We do not all have the answers or same situations but maybe someone else can give better insight that we just do not see.    It is us as the patients that learn from each other and can relate since we all are going through similar situations. We all have the understanding that it is only opinions that are being offered and we can use them if we wish or not.   We are discriminated against when we are heavy and tend not to speak up...then we come to a support meeting where it should be freely to speak and then told you speak too much or out of line...per say.   Who would want to go and not be able to contribute to the group and see if there is advice or suggestions that could help. I myself was in a shell when I started going to Good Sam Support meetings in Dec 07. Since going and having the surgery I love that you can ask questions or help give advice.....that is what I thought "support" was all about. We are supposed to be there for each other and help each other when in need.   I hope we can all show this person that we are still there to support them and that we value his opinion and suggestions. No one should be told to leave a group when this is something that we all need.

I think some people take things personally and do not understand that people are trying to help not hurt others. Some have stronger opinions than others and they can get their feelings involved and make them come across harsh. But if you have been there long enough like most of us you know this person is a good person and just wants to help others and everyone makes comments that maybe inappropriate but it is not meant to be vicious it was simply a joke. If you do not get to learn who the people are that have been going to the meeting for a long time and only judge the person based on a few meetings I think the is a little judgemental.

I really hope that this person knows there are people out there that care about him and want to continue to support him and have him support us.
  Thanks for taking the time to post this issue and I hope there are more people that feel we need to support each other.

The situation is a disgrace. It's not a SUPPORT MEETING they run at that facility; it's a SALE PITCH for the 2 attending Physicians.

I no longer feel safe to share anything at that mentioned meeting for fear of getting my "pink slip" if they don't like what I say.
- Sometimes, the truth is harsh.
- Not always pretty.
- Doesn't paint Bariatric Surgery in a perfect light.
- Individual opinions may not make the surgeons happy. But we all are entitled to our opinions.

In light of this, I am seriously considering never attending again.
How is it that this particular person was "okay enough" to organize the last big hospital event, planning meetings, organizing the participants, etc.....yet not a few months later they are "unfit" to attend?!??!?!?!

I feel that the hospital staff owes this individual and all those who are near and dear to him an explanation....not just smoke and mirrors and a bunch of fluff for an answer. They need to step up to the plate....and do it SOONER rather than LATER.

-Karen I.

 To be fair, ALL support groups out there which take place in a medical facility (not LIPO or POSE of course) are intended to be just that - pitches for the doctors who use that practice.  And offer support as a sideline.  :-)

I am well aware that GS promotes Dr. Daniel et all exclusively; yet I have never heard them denigrate or put down another medical professional's practice.  If they did I would not be returning.  

Perhaps someone can call the social worker and invite her to post here on OH.

I think that sometimes people get all riled up and fired up in groups -- and then the group sort of reforms and remorphs into another "iteration" -- this is part of the lifecyle of group change.   There are those who will stop coming, and those who will now choose to continue to attend BECAUSE this person is gone.  Growth and change is very painful, and I am sorry this situation has caused heartache for those involved.  I would never wish that on anyone.   

I think this is a complete outrage! I agree with you that this will effect the Good Sam meeting. Many of us have had a sour taste in our mouth's about Good Sam for a while now (since the last incident) and I for one have no intention of going back to Good Sam. I think its unfortunate that this person is someone who brings up real issues that perhaps the social worker and RN do not want all the pre-ops hearing about and this is why our friend was asked not to come back.  I thought Good Sam is supposed to be a group run but profesionaly moderated group and they have taken the "group run" aspect away. I agree that this will hurt the individual as this was the only support group this person was able to attend. Its just not right on so many levels.
If for some reason they felt that he needed special care whether is be psyciatic or psychological, they should not have asked him to not attend the meetings anymore. Does this personal sometimes say things i dont agree with? absolutely! But does that mean what he says should not be heard... NO WAY! He speaks his real, harsh, frank truths and who are they to stop him.

Neither the social worker or the RN have ever spent a day in their lives being fat and have never had bariatric surgery. They have no idea what we go through. Text book training doesnt even touch on obesity other than its an issue that must be stopped. As a social worker, I see even in an oppression class weight was never once discussed and obese people were not even close to considered to be an oppressed population. How can two people who have never been overweight a day in their lives and never had bariatric surgery and never had proper training begin to tell a person that he needs special care when they have no clue! 

Im sorry Im ranting but I am very sad to hear this news and very sad for my friend. Maryellen... We should do something.... just not sure what yet.... Maybe start our own sat morning group :-)

I just want to add my 2 cents to what Rachel said...
I totally agree with you.  The meetings have become a "commercial" for having surgery at Good Sam.  That is all well and good for the new people but they also need to hear that our journey does have its challenges. None of us have had a totally "easy" journey. Bariatric surgery is not an easy fix. If it was we would have woken up after the surgery and already been skinny!  Obesity is a many faceted problem. Being fat had different causes for many of us.  Of course we all ate too much but the reasons for that overeating are not the same for everyone. If a member is having "bumps in that journey" the group should be helping him get over those bumps not telling him not to come back.  It is just horrible to kick a member out because what he says is pointing out that our journey is not an easy one!

I will probably be the next member to be shut up... It doesn't sound good for the bariatric program that I needed to have my lapband out in emergency surgery.  I just might scare off some of the potential bandsters!  I think we need a new Saturday morning meeting that is really a support group! And I want it run by people who have taken the same road that I have not by people who have never been fat for one day of their lives!

Wow! I go to Georgia for a few days and look at all that happens! LOL

Ok, so...here are my thoughts on the matter....and I have MANY!

The Good Sam group is a group that welcomes all bariatric patients , regardless of surgery type, doctor use, or hospital used. Thus, being a group open to all, it needs to function for all. So, honestly, if a member is disrupting the group or causing other members to avoid coming to meetings, some sort of action should be made.

That having been said, I think the actions they have chosen in this matter, are, without a doubt, APPAULING!!!!!!!!  Let me say that again...just for some emphasis--A-PAAAAAAULING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As a soon-to-be teacher...if I had a child acting out in class or distracting other students, what would I do? Throw the kid out? Nooooo waaaaaaay! I'd pull the child aside and speak to him or her about the unwanted behavior. Let the child know what  is unacceptable and what is expected of them. Give them the opportunity to change what they are doing. Give them a chance. Perhaps even try to find out why they act the way they do--HELP THEM, NOT BANISH THEM!
None of us acts perfectly in every single situation. Sometmes we make mistakes, sometimes we don't realize how we sound to others or how we make others feel. But, we deserve the right to try to change our behavior!

So, my real dilemma here is not whether or not people were bothered. Maybe they were. Ok, so, tell the offender and let him make a change. My real dilemma is how this whole thing was handled--and how many things have been handled. I feel like I myself have been blind-sided at least twice by the leaders of this group.Apparently, according to these leaders, I should not only NOT BE A SUPPORT GROUP LEADER because I am not yet 12mo out, but I also should not tell others about my group--I shouldn't help other bariatric patients! Nice, right?!   I have been personally offended and at the last meeting, when I tried to speak up, I was interrupted and talked over, by a leader. So, why am I there? Honestly, why do I get up at 7am on a Saturday, so I have time to shower and take my pills and get to this meeting, when my input, my support, my desire to help, lead, give of myself, etc is not valued by the staff?

I just think it is despicable to tell somebody they are not allowed to come back to a meeting until they get help, without telling them exactly what the problem is and without giving them a chance to change. I mean, really....isn't this surgery a second chance for all of us? I know for me, this is a second chance at life, at living! If second chances are not valued by these leaders, then maybe WE are not valued as people. Because each one of us are living our second chance!

Now, I do consider this person a friend. I value his opinion, his experience, his knowledge, his good heart, his sense of humor, etc. Does he **** me off sometimes/? Sure. That's ok. My best friend ****** me off sometimes! LOL Just like I am sure I **** them off from time to time--that is just life!
Sometimes the things that are hardest to hear are the things we neeeeeeeed to hear! Sometimes the people that aggravate us can actually show us something about ourselves!

I just think it's soooooo stupid to have no care for this person, to send him out of a group that he needs just as much as others need it. I don't feel the leaders are heartless people, I just feel they are acting in a really unfair and uncaring manner and it's really really sad.

I really don't want people to feel like we are only upset because we are friends with this person. Maybe those closest to him will feel a bit more personal involvement, but I just think the shame is not only in his own feelings, but in the implications this has for each and every one of us. This has been not only an offense to him, but to EACH ONE OF US!!!!!!
It's easy to blow this off if it is not you, but what if it WAS you? What if it WILL BE you?!!! If this person, one who has given sooooo much to those of us at Good Sam was thrown away like trash, why can't they do the same to any of us?!

I am sick to my stomach, thinking about this! I don't know about the rest of you, but I, for one, don't think I want to go to this group anymore. I feel sad, though, as I enjoy going and sharing my story with pre-ops. I enjoy helping. That's why Rachel and I started POSE and I am sure that is one of the reasons why Maryellen started LIPO. (Which I am sooooooo grateful for!) We all want to help. We want to give back. So, maybe we need our own group, one that welcomes all, supports all, values input from ALL, not just those approved parties.

 I am on the side of US, not of the hospital, not of the leaders who could NEVER know what this is like, no matter how long they've worked in the field.

I feel a revolution coming on...call me a bariatric patriot!

Hugs, and SUPPORT,
Heather