Is there ANYONE here who is NOT getting surgery?

Thanks!

a summation of a lengthier reply that would most likely cause confusion and wordy backlash towards me and my progress.

if you are happy with your fad diet of fasting, a "practice" (I say necessity) of people 200 years ago, when the average life expectancy was about 35 years. More power to ya.

I will say this,

weight loss is the goal, ALL FORMS OF TRYING TO LOSE WEIGHT are the tools to get us there. I for one prefer a tool that has proved its worth and is fairly dependable, as opposed to having to go back to the store for another "knock off" that only causes a waste of time and frustration.

to all my OH brothers and sisters, I love you all, and I thank god every day that I came across this site, it is not here to sway opinions or force surgery on anyone, it is here to provide different points of view and a shoulder to lean on, or cry on. I don't post often, I don't reply to posts often, but I know one thing, if you ask a question or post a thought you wont get any smoke blown up your a$$.

that is all.

People had a lower life expectancy because modern medical science is WAY better than it has ever been. These days you won't die from a broken leg or a simple infection the way we used to. It has nothing to do with the way we eat. In fact, these days as well all know it's the way we eat that is killing us.

It always amuses me that people call anything a "fad" when it is 1) new and 2) popular. First of all, intermittent fasting is hardly new, it's been practiced for thousands of years, especially in religious communities. In fact, it's been practiced ever since human beings existed, since there was no choice: sometimes there was food available, sometimes there wasn't. So, 50,000 years of evolution have designed us specifically to eat that way. Theat's WHY we gain weight in the fist place: because your body wants to store energy during good times for the times there isn't any food.

It's WLS that is the fad, my friend. It's only been around for a few short decades. Fasting has been tested for the whole length of human existence. It's been tested and proven billions and billions of times over by mother nature.

Hey I am the one. Don't know about others. I didn't do any kind of surgery yet. lol

Some people are gonna hate me for this .. but grrrl can you rock a cute bikini like many of us do post op? Do you run 5 Ks do yoga classes and horseback riding and live the rich full lives we have discovered after successful WLS?

I hate to see you expend your precious life energy on arguing with people who truly care about you because we're so similar .. and we all hate seeing our fellow MO sufferers fail diets and other powerless programs.

I at least desperately needed the surgery both both for my health and my self esteem. The surgery totally changed my health my outlook and my future. ((( ))) hugs

always wishing you the best

I'll weigh in (pun intended). I went for medical intervention not because it was "taking the easy way out" and I certainly wasn't "duped". The fact is, I could not get control of things on my own. It wasn't for a lack of effort, research, willpower or determination. If you can name a diet in the past 40 years, I was on it. They don't work long term. None of them. Not for me at least, and I don't know a single person that has had lifelong success while working a "fad" diet. The only way to maintain that I buy into, is a complete and total lifestyle change with a dedication to yourself, following a high-protein, low carb diet with plenty of water. That can be done without surgery, but for some, even that isn't sustainable without the help and support of a forum such as this. Fasting or other gimmick diet, or something like WLS, it all boils down to a dedication to a lifestyle change in your head. Without that, nothing will work because humans are a creature of habit by nature. Surgical intervention is only one tool, nothing more. It isn't a magic bullet, it is an aide for those that choose. That choice doesn't make them weak, or desperate; it doesn't make them wrong or foolish for choosing it. They certainly aren't "stupid" any more than WLS is a stupid option. I have an I.Q of 186, averaged out over 3 professionally administered tests (not those internet ones). Am I stupid for seeking help? I think not. I believe that people who admit they need help for something, then seek any measure they can to get that help and improve themselves, are to be commended. Indeed, in the world of weight loss, the same can be said for those that are genetically blessed, physically and mentally able and find the path to a healthy life without medical intervention deserve the exact same commendation, because in the end, they found the same success.

As I've posted before, in early 2013 I was 391 pounds. Through hard work on my dietary choices, discipline around food, and 4 nights a week at the gym, I dropped to around 330 in 6 months. Then it plateaued. With no explanation by my trainer friends, it wouldn't budge, no matter what I did. I tried multiple approaches, including the fasting method, alternating days for months on end. I never cheated, not once. For me, it didn't work. I didn't have a net loss after almost 3 years of trying. My bloodwork was the only thing that had improved slightly, moving my cholesterol in the right direction because of the regular physical activity and better foods. There I was, sitting at 330-340 in that window.

I asked my doctor about WLS and he set up a referral at my request after a lengthy conversation. We spoke for the better part of 1.5 hours, which is time that doctors don't usually have for patients these days. The Bariatric Clinic didn't seek me beyond my doctor's referral. They offered a chair on an intro class, and presented their information, believe it or not, in a matter-of-fact, non-biased way. They were clear that it isn't for everyone, and it was always my choice to follow through or not. I sought knowledge to see if this was the best option for me. During the extensive classes, I was able to pinpoint psychological and emotional triggers for me, and resolve those issues prior to any decision on surgery. WLS or not, identifying those issues and using tools other than food to eliminate them is most important for any success. I went through the battery of tests, all of the classes with the dieticians and psychologists, clinic doctor assigned to me, and read EXTENSIVELY on line about the post-surgical life. Based on my life experiences with every non-surgical option known to man, I made a VERY informed decision to accept their offer of surgery. The lifestyle change I mentioned before would have had to happen regardless, but the WLS I chose, has resulted in fast, effective weight loss which has helped me implement all of the other things required to achieve and maintain a healthy life moving forward.

Like Grim said, I wish you all the best as you maintain your opinions on WLS and proceed with your life as you see fit. Good luck to you, I really mean that.

Like many of you, and as I've said, I, also, tried every diet and method for 40 years. They didn't work for me, either. Like you, I know all about the dreaded plateaus and all the other issues with the recommended "eat less and exercise" method. The problem si that as you lose more weight, your BMR gets slower and you burn fewer calories. But interestingly, that doesn't happen when fasting.

I completely agree with you that ANY serious weight loss HAS to be accompanied by some sort of lifestyle change. In my case, it's "only eat once every 24 hours, and sometimes fast for 3-4 days". It's not 100% perfect, but after everything I've tried, it's SO much easier than trying to get on the treadmill, or count calories, or whatever. I can absolutely say that after trying everything, like most of us have, intermittent fasting has been by far both the most successful and the easiest to do.

I didn't say people who get WLS are weak or stupid or anything. I feel sorry for them because they weren't informed of better ways. And, to be fair, even doctors and nutritionists were teaching what they THOUGHT was the best way. They just happened to be wrong. Only now is it finally starting to get out how bad traditional "diets" are.

So, in desperation just like you, I considered surgery. Even went to classes for it. There I learned a lot, and it scared the crap out of me. Your problem is that you consider anything new and popular to be a "fad" and therefore useless. But intermittent fasting is hardly new, LOL. It's been around as long as humans have existed, except now we have a choice top do it or not which our ancestors didn't have. It's popular because it DOES work. You can try to ignore it as a "fad" like all the others, but you're wrong. I'm living proof. If you never tried it, then you actually have not tried "every non-surgical option known to man".

I'm glad things worked out for you but sorry you had to pick such an unnecessarily drastic method.

ObesityHelp is a bariatric surgery website, which they openly state. >.>

As for myself, surgery saved my life and my sanity. I would choose it again in a heartbeat. I also value fasting and ketogenic diets, too, that you mention.

I've lost over 460 pounds. 300ish of those were by diet alone pre-op. At that point I was unable to lose more despite fasting, being on very low carb diets, etc. The only way I lost weight, and very slowly at that, was eating calories lower than many of us do after surgery, which caused me severe issues. I don't talk about this much, however I was, in fact, violently anti-WLS for many years. After getting over myself, I threw myself into researching surgery, and I discovered that it was very useful for many people, and, in fact, most people are very happy with it. Is surgery for everyone? Absolutely not. However, for many of us it works well enough that it's restored significant numbers of people to normal healthy weights after they were obese.

I'm familiar with Fung's work, and I'm one of the moderators on the Ketogenic Forums which are run by Richard and Carl. Carl also edits the new IDM podcast. Thus, I am very familiar with IF and fasting, perhaps more than the average person. I also don't talk about this much as I prefer to keep my forum realms separate and I don't want anyone to think I am needlessly handwaving as I pontificate enough. I only mention this now so you can understand that my opinions about surgery and ketogenic diets are both informed and well-researched.

I chose to have surgery. I had tried everything - fasting and ketogenic diets included. I'm a Zen Buddhist and used to fast 7-30 days at times. Again, I also used to weigh 750 pounds, 300+ of which I lost from following low carb (primarily ketogenic/zero carb) diets, so I know a lot about walking the talk. I have been on low carb diets for over ten years. I lost a lot of weight...however I began stalling and could no longer lose at a decent pace unless I cut my calories so low the doctor wanted to see me multiple times a week (300 calories). I am severely and intractably insulin resistant.

It is true that fasting can effect benefits similar to WLS, actually. However, there are stark differences.

For starters, the changes are significantly greater with surgery. Fasting and ketogenic diets *can* reverse T2 diabetes and reduce A1C. My A1C went from 11 to 6 with diet alone. However, my A1C refused to drop lower no matter what I did. After several months of only losing 2-3 pounds a month and being utterly miserable with being unable to eat anything aside from protein powder in order to stay super low calorie but still get my protein I needed, I took another look at surgery.

Fasting and such does not cause a permanent alteration to glucose metabolism. Most people also typically are all over the place diet-wise. Very few people on ketogenic diets do reduce their obesity; oh a lot lose weight. Some lose hundreds of pounds and do very well. For a variety of reasons, though, surgery works well for the majority of the obese...even more so than a ketogenic diet and fasting.

Surgery also works faster and the changes are stronger and more resilient. It immediately begins to reverse insulin resistance by permanently changing the enteroendocrine hormones that regulate obesity. A gastric bypass, for instance, cures diabetes in a matter of days. Several insulin dependent people can go off insulin usually after a few weeks if they are type 2. Surgery works very well, particularly the duodenal switch.

Having said that, while I understand your frustrations, I do not think that slamming surgery is going to get you the fellowship you seek. It's just as ruthless as people who may have shoved surgery down your throat. Forums typically serve populations that request services and that is how they manifest changes. Why don't you start fasting groups or ketogenic groups if that's what you want here? If you don't want to do that there are many other places as well.

There are many options and everyone must be well-informed and well-educated to make them. While you may not like it, surgery is one such option that has done many more people good than ill. Regardless, good luck finding what you are looking for. I hope you're able to find the change and support you need.

They don't "openly state" it until you're already here. People come here looking for general obesity help, not just one method. It's deceptive.

It's nice to see someone else who has been successful with keto and fasting - in fact, the first person here who knws anything at all about fasting. So for me, I do both IF and eating keto when I'm not fasting. I'm also a Buddhist!

It seems like you initially had a problem with fasting because you were "eating calories lower than many of us do after surgery, which caused me severe issues". There's actually a big difference between "super low calorie" and "no calories at all". An odd thing about fasting is that while sever calorie restriction (like eating only a few hundred calories a day) doesn't work and is in fact counter-productive, while eating NO calories for periods doesn't have those bad effects. I've never talked to someone who weighed as much as you did - I'm not sure if there are any metabolic difference between morbidly obese and superobese (or whatever it's called).

Without responding to your message line-by-line, I have one general question. You said things like "there are stark differences", "the changes are significantly greater with surgery", "fasting and such does not cause a permanent alteration to glucose metabolism" (and I assume you are implying WLS does), "Surgery also works faster and the changes are stronger and more resilient. It immediately begins to reverse insulin resistance by permanently changing the enteroendocrine hormones that regulate obesity".

I am wondering on what you base those statements. Di you have any proof/studies that this is the case? If you believe this, then why do you think it is? What's the difference between fasting and surgery? what magical benefit do you think surgery has that fasting does not?

Thanks for the first intelligent, non-abusive response. You are a good buddhist! :-)

IDM has a new monthly program that my friend Brenda works for as a consultant. If you want fasting support I suggest utilizing that.

In my case, I had trouble with fasting causing weight loss because I was once 750 pounds. The metabolic consequences of severe obesity often need drastic correction. There is a drastic difference between each stage of obesity. In my case, frankly I wanted a more permanent solution, and fasting is not permanent. It also does not reset your metabolism in the space of a few months.

My statements are based on literally thousands of articles about weight loss surgery, but here's one to start. While fasting has a few similar mechanisms, they are not permanent nor do they correct insulin resistance immediately. Surgery does so quickly that many people cease taking their diabetic medications within a week, particularly with the gastric bypass. Here's an example as to why. If you are familiar with the Break Nutrition podcast, Gabor Erdoski and I have had several conversations about surgery actually (he's frequently a guest on it). The differences between surgery and fasting are night and day.

Most bariatric patients I've worked with are familiar with fasting and ketogenic diets and they have failed where surgery works. The metabolic changes surgery produces also affect the brain in the same fashion, as well as the fact that it involves several months of behavioral changes. It's not a panacea.

It is, however, effective at maintaining significant weight loss in over 95% of people who get it. There are many statistics on that all over.

Fasting isn't inefficient, however it's not superior to weight loss surgery. That's a gross misunderstanding. Nor is surgery superior to fasting. It has a more powerful and more immediate metabolic effect, and these change depending on the type of surgery. This is one of the things we address in the podcast that I contributed to some time ago.