A mother Seeking True answers DS RNY or MGB
Orignal poster of the post lily_in_VA’s Posts
Hi this is not my post but these are also the questions that i seek
Hi! I'm new to this site - again! Haven't been on in years. I had an RNY in July of 2001, and I highly recommend my surgeon and the procedure. I have had a few complications indirectly related to my surgery, but nothing that I blame the surgeon for. I had a hernia, which is common after an open surgery - but I got an all-expense paid tummy tuck because of it, so I'm not complaining! I rejoined today because my best friend's daughter is looking into WLS, and I wanted to see what's new and different since 7 years ago. My friend was reading about the MGB, and I wanted to see if anything has changed in the procedure. It doesn't sound like it. As long as I'm here, I can give you some insights as someone who was there kind of from the beginning. I think that 30 revisions number is may be the number of revisions Dr. Rutledge himself has done, but everyone I know who had a revision had it converted to an RNY by another doctor. I can think of 5 people I knew who had revisions back then - about one year post-op, plus another lady who had to have Dr. Rutledge do a take down due to severe anemia. That was when Dr. Rutledge was the only one doing the surgery, and there had been about 800 total. There has always been an awful lot of argument about the MGB, which I first researched back in 2000, when it was brand new. It seems that most people are happy with their weight loss, but the people who I knew who had complications were seriously ill. I had a friend who had complications and almost died before having a revision to an RNY. I knew another woman who couldn't work. If you understand anything about plumbing, you can look at the MGB and see exactly why some people have reflux problems - the intestine, which is filled with bile, which is an alkaline base, is connected directly to the pouch/stomach. As long as people are standing up, it's fine, but since there is no flap (pyloric valve), the alkaline bile can back up into the stomach when someone is lying down. Think about how your sink would drain if you laid teh plumbing on its side. In most people, it doesn't seem to be a problem. But in the people I knew who had the reflux problems, it was explosive - really unbelievable and horrible to see - like projectile vomiting squared. Basically, when the alkaline bile meets the stomach acid, the same thing happens as when you pour vinegar on baking soda to make a volcano for your kid's science fair project. Many people back then were complaining that they had to sleep in a recliner, but it seemed to get better for most of them further post-op. Obviously, the vast majority of people must be satisfied, and have no problems with their surgery. Since bile and acid will ultimately neutralize each other, I imagine that's what usually happens. The thing that actually put me off the most was research I did on Medline. The old Bilroth II was not abandoned due to bile reflux causing indigestion - it was a surgery to treat ulcers and acid reflus problems, so whatever complications there were couldn't have been very widespread. But Medline reported several studies linking the Bilroth II to a scary increase in stomach cancer - with an average onset of 22 years. Dr. Rutledge seems like a very sincere man, and he is absolutely convinced that his modification to the stomach - the vertical, rather than horizontal design, will solve all the problems. He may be right in most cases, but just because the bile is mixing with the acid way down in your stomach, where you don't feel pain, as opposed to up in your esophagus, this doesn't necessarily eliminate the cancer issue. Dr. Rutledge sincerely believes in his surgery, and I don't think he'd continue doing it if he was seeing a lot of complications, but in talking to him, I discovered that the figures for complication rates on his website were somewhat misleading - at least to me. He only reports surgical complications that occur within 30 days - things like a hernia, which would be very unlikely with any lap surgery, or internal bleeding, an infection - things like that. He never reported the complaints that people had post-op as a result of his procedure. He didn't believe the MGB caused it, he blamed the patients for not eating right - which may have been a contributing factor, for all I know. He said intestinal bile in the stomach was not a problem. It seems that most other surgeons, including those at Mayo and Johns-Hopkins, disagree. Dr. Rutledge says it's just professional jealousy, or stodgy old doctors wanting to do the same old thing, but the MGB is a Bilroth II, despite his minor modifications - if it weren't he'd have had to test it on animals or something besides human guinea pigs. His insurance code - which may have changed since then - was the standard code for a Bilroth II. Back in 2001, when I had my RNY, insurance companies generally wouldn't pay for the MGB because a Bilroth II wasn't an approved weight loss surgery - although they would have covered it for other reasons. I don't know what the status is now, but the insurance companies refusal to cover it had nothing to do with any complications or complaints about the surgery. The comment about Dr. Rutledge not having insurance was probably a misunderstanding. I don't know how he does it now, but back then, he wouldn't process insurance claims, even if your insurance company might pay for all or part of the surgery. You had to pay him up front, and then do your own insurance filing to get reimbursed. I imagine that was what the poster was referring to. I just have to say one thing in defense of the RNY - It is also done in slightly different ways, with different results, so i would encourage anyone who's considering it to check with their doctor, and see exactly how they do it, and read up on the differences. But, it's not fair to compare complication rates or death rates for the MGB to an RNY straight across the board. The MGB is only done on relative lightweights, and those people are typically better candidates for any type of surgery - the heavier the person, the more likely it is there will be complications. My doctor performed a successful RNY on an 800 pound man, and that happens every day around the country. Also, until recently, almost all RNY's were done open - I don't know what the percentage is now, but really heavy people can't have the lap surgery, and complication rates will always be much higher for an open surgery. MGB's are never done open - a patient who weighs too much just can't get one. Also, the relative lightweights - people with only 100 pounds or so to lose, always have better results with any type of WLS. The heavier people are fighting a bigger genetic battle. I eat anything i want - seiously, anything - but I just can't eat too much. It doesn't take much to fill me up, but I often feel like I overeat, so I honestly can't see how people stretch out their pouches - it's just too painful to overeat, even a little bit. But, I don't see why the MGB would be any better than an RNY in that respect. The muscles that must contract in order to let your brain know you're full are at the very top of the stomach. The pouch is a lot larger on the MGB, and I honestly think RNY surgeons and patients take the wrong approach, making the pouch so small that the patient is so limited in eating. From the post-op discussions I've had, it seems that the biggest problem with RNY patients is that they starve themselves, instead of eating a lot of little meals, and they wind up skipping meals, getting very few calories, and shutting down their metabolism and gaining weight on 600 calories a day! The last thing I'd like to say is I don't think anyone should rely too heavily on CLOS.net, or any other surgeon's website, when trying to get the facts about any surgery. Those web pages are there to sell surgeries, and the information is certainly slanted to make their own surgery look the best, and make all the others look as bad as possible. It's much better to get MGB info from an RNY doctor, and RNY info from an MGB doctor, etc., because you'll certainly get a more honest view of the downside that way. And, it's very important to do your research, and know aht surgery will fit your post-op lifestyle - and what sort of risks you're willing to take. Forums like this are great places to find information. Since I just joined, I don't know what all the forums are, but before my surgery decision, I lurked for about a year on several sites, particularly the Graduates site for people at least one year post-op, where I could really get a feel for what life was like, what problems people had, a year or two, or five post-op. You also have to remember, for the most part, the only old timers you'll see online are the people who are having problems of some sort. People like me, who have no problems, lose interest after a while - once your surgery just becomes a part of your past. Anyway, sorry for being so long-winded. I wanted to add my two cents about the MGB, but I guess I put in more like a few dollars! What I'm really trying to find out now - and all you newbies who have been researching this stuff probably know - what's the trend now? Other than the MGB, are things shifting to any of the newer surgeries? There was a lot of talk back when about DS and BPD(?) - I can't remember if that's right. My friend's daughter is very young - 20 years old and in college in Texas. She has always had a weight problem, and she got a lap band a few years ago, when she was 16. She weighed over 300 pounds at the time, and she should probably weigh around 150. She has probably lost about 50-60 pounds, but she's still very heavy - definitely over 40 BMI - probably still weighs in the upper 200's. Of course, who knows how heavy she would be if she hadn't had the band? She says she feels hungry all the time, and just eats really slow and drinks lots of water, and outeats her band. I think she's either got an eating disorder, or it may be head hunger, or maybe 16 year old kids just aren't mature enough to have any WLS. Any RNY like mine, where the stomach is completely severed into two pieces, doesn't produce an enzyme that creates that hungry feeling, but she insists that she's hungry all the time. So, now, they think it's time to do something more serious. I am very happy with my RNY, but I was wondering if a DS would be better for her, since you can eat more? But, I saw some negative comments here about the DS - what's the deal with that? And, whatever happened to the BPD? And the gastric pacemaker? And what in the heck is a gastric sleeve? And, is insurance still pretty much only paying for the RNY? Are people having problems getting insurance to pay? Back when I had my surgery, one reason I didn't wait an extra few months to have it done lap was that I was getting nervous - it seemed like the insurance companies were trying to pull the plug on WLS. If anyone can kind of give me an overview of what's going on now, it would save me a lot of time researching! Thanks bunches! Lily
Hi this is not my post but these are also the questions that i seek
Hi! I'm new to this site - again! Haven't been on in years. I had an RNY in July of 2001, and I highly recommend my surgeon and the procedure. I have had a few complications indirectly related to my surgery, but nothing that I blame the surgeon for. I had a hernia, which is common after an open surgery - but I got an all-expense paid tummy tuck because of it, so I'm not complaining! I rejoined today because my best friend's daughter is looking into WLS, and I wanted to see what's new and different since 7 years ago. My friend was reading about the MGB, and I wanted to see if anything has changed in the procedure. It doesn't sound like it. As long as I'm here, I can give you some insights as someone who was there kind of from the beginning. I think that 30 revisions number is may be the number of revisions Dr. Rutledge himself has done, but everyone I know who had a revision had it converted to an RNY by another doctor. I can think of 5 people I knew who had revisions back then - about one year post-op, plus another lady who had to have Dr. Rutledge do a take down due to severe anemia. That was when Dr. Rutledge was the only one doing the surgery, and there had been about 800 total. There has always been an awful lot of argument about the MGB, which I first researched back in 2000, when it was brand new. It seems that most people are happy with their weight loss, but the people who I knew who had complications were seriously ill. I had a friend who had complications and almost died before having a revision to an RNY. I knew another woman who couldn't work. If you understand anything about plumbing, you can look at the MGB and see exactly why some people have reflux problems - the intestine, which is filled with bile, which is an alkaline base, is connected directly to the pouch/stomach. As long as people are standing up, it's fine, but since there is no flap (pyloric valve), the alkaline bile can back up into the stomach when someone is lying down. Think about how your sink would drain if you laid teh plumbing on its side. In most people, it doesn't seem to be a problem. But in the people I knew who had the reflux problems, it was explosive - really unbelievable and horrible to see - like projectile vomiting squared. Basically, when the alkaline bile meets the stomach acid, the same thing happens as when you pour vinegar on baking soda to make a volcano for your kid's science fair project. Many people back then were complaining that they had to sleep in a recliner, but it seemed to get better for most of them further post-op. Obviously, the vast majority of people must be satisfied, and have no problems with their surgery. Since bile and acid will ultimately neutralize each other, I imagine that's what usually happens. The thing that actually put me off the most was research I did on Medline. The old Bilroth II was not abandoned due to bile reflux causing indigestion - it was a surgery to treat ulcers and acid reflus problems, so whatever complications there were couldn't have been very widespread. But Medline reported several studies linking the Bilroth II to a scary increase in stomach cancer - with an average onset of 22 years. Dr. Rutledge seems like a very sincere man, and he is absolutely convinced that his modification to the stomach - the vertical, rather than horizontal design, will solve all the problems. He may be right in most cases, but just because the bile is mixing with the acid way down in your stomach, where you don't feel pain, as opposed to up in your esophagus, this doesn't necessarily eliminate the cancer issue. Dr. Rutledge sincerely believes in his surgery, and I don't think he'd continue doing it if he was seeing a lot of complications, but in talking to him, I discovered that the figures for complication rates on his website were somewhat misleading - at least to me. He only reports surgical complications that occur within 30 days - things like a hernia, which would be very unlikely with any lap surgery, or internal bleeding, an infection - things like that. He never reported the complaints that people had post-op as a result of his procedure. He didn't believe the MGB caused it, he blamed the patients for not eating right - which may have been a contributing factor, for all I know. He said intestinal bile in the stomach was not a problem. It seems that most other surgeons, including those at Mayo and Johns-Hopkins, disagree. Dr. Rutledge says it's just professional jealousy, or stodgy old doctors wanting to do the same old thing, but the MGB is a Bilroth II, despite his minor modifications - if it weren't he'd have had to test it on animals or something besides human guinea pigs. His insurance code - which may have changed since then - was the standard code for a Bilroth II. Back in 2001, when I had my RNY, insurance companies generally wouldn't pay for the MGB because a Bilroth II wasn't an approved weight loss surgery - although they would have covered it for other reasons. I don't know what the status is now, but the insurance companies refusal to cover it had nothing to do with any complications or complaints about the surgery. The comment about Dr. Rutledge not having insurance was probably a misunderstanding. I don't know how he does it now, but back then, he wouldn't process insurance claims, even if your insurance company might pay for all or part of the surgery. You had to pay him up front, and then do your own insurance filing to get reimbursed. I imagine that was what the poster was referring to. I just have to say one thing in defense of the RNY - It is also done in slightly different ways, with different results, so i would encourage anyone who's considering it to check with their doctor, and see exactly how they do it, and read up on the differences. But, it's not fair to compare complication rates or death rates for the MGB to an RNY straight across the board. The MGB is only done on relative lightweights, and those people are typically better candidates for any type of surgery - the heavier the person, the more likely it is there will be complications. My doctor performed a successful RNY on an 800 pound man, and that happens every day around the country. Also, until recently, almost all RNY's were done open - I don't know what the percentage is now, but really heavy people can't have the lap surgery, and complication rates will always be much higher for an open surgery. MGB's are never done open - a patient who weighs too much just can't get one. Also, the relative lightweights - people with only 100 pounds or so to lose, always have better results with any type of WLS. The heavier people are fighting a bigger genetic battle. I eat anything i want - seiously, anything - but I just can't eat too much. It doesn't take much to fill me up, but I often feel like I overeat, so I honestly can't see how people stretch out their pouches - it's just too painful to overeat, even a little bit. But, I don't see why the MGB would be any better than an RNY in that respect. The muscles that must contract in order to let your brain know you're full are at the very top of the stomach. The pouch is a lot larger on the MGB, and I honestly think RNY surgeons and patients take the wrong approach, making the pouch so small that the patient is so limited in eating. From the post-op discussions I've had, it seems that the biggest problem with RNY patients is that they starve themselves, instead of eating a lot of little meals, and they wind up skipping meals, getting very few calories, and shutting down their metabolism and gaining weight on 600 calories a day! The last thing I'd like to say is I don't think anyone should rely too heavily on CLOS.net, or any other surgeon's website, when trying to get the facts about any surgery. Those web pages are there to sell surgeries, and the information is certainly slanted to make their own surgery look the best, and make all the others look as bad as possible. It's much better to get MGB info from an RNY doctor, and RNY info from an MGB doctor, etc., because you'll certainly get a more honest view of the downside that way. And, it's very important to do your research, and know aht surgery will fit your post-op lifestyle - and what sort of risks you're willing to take. Forums like this are great places to find information. Since I just joined, I don't know what all the forums are, but before my surgery decision, I lurked for about a year on several sites, particularly the Graduates site for people at least one year post-op, where I could really get a feel for what life was like, what problems people had, a year or two, or five post-op. You also have to remember, for the most part, the only old timers you'll see online are the people who are having problems of some sort. People like me, who have no problems, lose interest after a while - once your surgery just becomes a part of your past. Anyway, sorry for being so long-winded. I wanted to add my two cents about the MGB, but I guess I put in more like a few dollars! What I'm really trying to find out now - and all you newbies who have been researching this stuff probably know - what's the trend now? Other than the MGB, are things shifting to any of the newer surgeries? There was a lot of talk back when about DS and BPD(?) - I can't remember if that's right. My friend's daughter is very young - 20 years old and in college in Texas. She has always had a weight problem, and she got a lap band a few years ago, when she was 16. She weighed over 300 pounds at the time, and she should probably weigh around 150. She has probably lost about 50-60 pounds, but she's still very heavy - definitely over 40 BMI - probably still weighs in the upper 200's. Of course, who knows how heavy she would be if she hadn't had the band? She says she feels hungry all the time, and just eats really slow and drinks lots of water, and outeats her band. I think she's either got an eating disorder, or it may be head hunger, or maybe 16 year old kids just aren't mature enough to have any WLS. Any RNY like mine, where the stomach is completely severed into two pieces, doesn't produce an enzyme that creates that hungry feeling, but she insists that she's hungry all the time. So, now, they think it's time to do something more serious. I am very happy with my RNY, but I was wondering if a DS would be better for her, since you can eat more? But, I saw some negative comments here about the DS - what's the deal with that? And, whatever happened to the BPD? And the gastric pacemaker? And what in the heck is a gastric sleeve? And, is insurance still pretty much only paying for the RNY? Are people having problems getting insurance to pay? Back when I had my surgery, one reason I didn't wait an extra few months to have it done lap was that I was getting nervous - it seemed like the insurance companies were trying to pull the plug on WLS. If anyone can kind of give me an overview of what's going on now, it would save me a lot of time researching! Thanks bunches! Lily
Hello,
Wow, you wanted to talk. Anyway, as with any surgical procedure there are risks. Not everyone response the same way. Research shows that some folks do well with one procedure others do not. The MGB has come a long way and is still one of the top procedures out there. Stereotyping is very common among us all. If someone doesn't do well then that is not good for anyone. Very common response which, of course, is not always the truth. So, the truth is, depends on the individual.
I am 10 years post op with the MGB and would do it again in a heart beat.
Wow, you wanted to talk. Anyway, as with any surgical procedure there are risks. Not everyone response the same way. Research shows that some folks do well with one procedure others do not. The MGB has come a long way and is still one of the top procedures out there. Stereotyping is very common among us all. If someone doesn't do well then that is not good for anyone. Very common response which, of course, is not always the truth. So, the truth is, depends on the individual.
I am 10 years post op with the MGB and would do it again in a heart beat.
Clueless about weight loss and weight loss surgery of any kind.
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