Question...Strength verses Fitness

Hey Guys.... And this may be a touch subject...it is not ment to be I need some education, and some of you fellows obviously have more knowledge than me...so smart me up.... This has to do with power lifting.... I told you guys several weeks ago, I got invited to go see some HS power lifters...and it was a great experience...my  friends that  invited us, was in the #148 weight class....so of course my attention was pointed to that area of the gym.... We went to support the next weekend also...and the format was different...with some breaks, so I got to see some of the other weight classes, and hear some of the conversations.... In the heavy weight divisions....there may be 1 guy out of 40 that I would say was fit and healthy.... Ok you can see where this is going.... The rest of the guys...were SMO at the least....and at least 1/2 were in worse shape than me before WLS.. I don;t wanna tear these young people down...but you know the outfits they had to wear....full out Moobs, nipples and all being pushed through the arm holes of their garments... One guy walked around in a towel around his waist, because he could not wear shorts because his uniform had cut into him... Ok what am I missing....??? These young men are able to move tremendous amounts of weight....there is no argument there....but is this considered strong, or just using there mass as leverage ???? They seems to have some very destructive behavior going....try to make a lift, and scream they need more energy, and go eat 3 chili dogs....every time....and this was not just one guy....many of them....hammering in what we on this board would call, trash calories, in the name of the sport.... The kids I was with...the lower weight groups were very nutrition consious...but on the higher weight groups....it seemed to me that there needed to be an intervention...they were using this sport, to reinforce bad eating habits.... Now there was a day, when I could eat 9 chili dogs, before supper....but I didn't try to justify it because I was participating in a sport.... The coaches were kinda round too.... I guess in my idealistic world, back when I was young...sports kept you body as sharp as your mind.... So...Blob.....Dave.....Buckeye...I know that y'all do heavy lifting....but it seems that that is only part of a full exercise routine... Taz....i'm so glad you posted about your exercise question....because I have thought about this for a week and didn't know how to bring up the subject.... Ok Taz....you are a nurse...Back when you were young, and power lifting....did you consider yourself fit, and healthy....? Now looking back, with the nursing experience....how do you see your physical fitness back in those days....? We have had some guys ask questions about losing strength after WLS....Example....before WLS, I could push a car....now because I was strong, but because I weighed more than the car..... Now I can not push a car....but I know that I am stronger now... I see guys in the guy....and there is NO DOUBT...they are stronger than me.....but I don;t think they are as fit.... I see guys that can bench 400#, but can not do 3 mins on the tread mill..... Ok I've rambled enough .....will y'all talk to me about this subject....i'm just confused...(and this has been coming on for a while....strength verses fitness) Russ

Did you say that these were high school aged kids.  That would make sense to me since when you are that age it is all about macho.  That is one reason that I would rather see my son play soccer than football.  In football, it's all about who is the strongest.  Kids are started in lifting programs too early and since they are "stupid kids" they don't know how to lift correctly.  It is all about the max which is the stupidest thing ever.  Trying to exert all your effort for one rep is just inviting injury.  I know because I have been there.  (too many times).  I was the stupid kid.  Anyway, give me a team of kids who can all finish a 10K under an hour and I will take my chances over a team of 300 lb benchers.  I am not sure I was really on the topic but that's what I think.

I think you have hit it on he head about some issues.  Having lifted competitively from the age of 14-25, I feel like powerlifters have a different kind of fitness level.  Powerlifters are more built for short bursts of speed/duration.  They tend to do high weight and low reps for bulk and power.  Now I was in the 220, 242, 275 weight pound classes at my peak, fluctuated.  I never felt like was more physically fit that someone who weighed 150-160, 178, 198 (I always felt like I personally was in pretty good shape during those years because I played football and wrestled), but many of the guys I competed against, I don't think many could have stayed on the treadmill more than 10 minutes at a good clip.  Strenght wise, I could go with anyone, but in terms of duration and distance, hands down there were definitely people more physically fit = less body fat and of course, more heart healthy.  Yes, many powerlifters look very out of shape - and to be quite frank - they are very obese as well - powerlifters call it being big boned - I bet we have all heard of that comment before, especially in those strength suits (it is like making some who has a 50" waist fit into a suit that has a 40"waist, it is all about the support and tension that the suit provides - I remember having to use KY jelly and baby powder to get in my suits).  Powerlifters in genreal try to rationalize that they get to eat like crap because they need the calories/carbs for strength/energy.  Having the education and medical background that I have has made me realize that much of what I thought was good practice/nutrition in my younger years was actually very bad for my health/body.  Knowing what I know now, I would take being physically fit over very strong anyday, especially at this juncture in my life.  I never want to be as strong like I was years ago.  I want my body built for distance/duration.  If I had to choose, believe it or not Russ, you have the ideal body type/structure that I am hoping to achieve once my weight loss surgery takes place.  I would love to be able to do a 5K marathon one year from 2/28/08 (surgery date).  Back when I was competing in those heavy weight classes, I would be lucky to do one eighth of a mile lap without stopping - I wasn't built for distance, I was built for short bursts of speed as I stated earlier.  I had legs like tree trunks.  Anyway, I hope this helps with some of your questions.  Taz NOTE - I am strictly speaking from the point of view about heavy weight classes in powerlifting, the lower weight classes (I am willing to bet my house on it) had people who I am sure could run a mile or two with no problem).  I don't want to step on anyones toes.  Taz 

Russ, Good question. I have a nephew who is about 3 years out of high school. He set state-wide records as a power lifter. He was and is Super-Morbidly Obese. A lot of muscle under that excess fat tissue, But still couldn’t jog half a mile without running out of breath. I’m interested to see responses to this question. I played some football as a fatboy defensive lineman many years back in my teens, And was never as “fit” then as I am now. Best Wishes- Dx

Hey russ,

the whole thing about lifting is actually very interesting. taz kind of hit the whole thing. the power lifters are all about fast twitch muscles and mind control. there's simply no way you can lift that amount overhead unless you fake your head out. so these guys are quite great at head control. also, the fast fibers are out of this world on these guys and girls. if you walked up to 400 pounds and just try to lift overhead, no way. it's mostly a head thing to con your body out of the reality.

as for the yelling, it really does help. again, more in the head. it's supposed to let out this primal thing that helps us get in that exact moment for hitting or whatever. it's been measured and it really does work on SOME but not all people. most guys scream and couldn not lift nearly the same without the yell.

as for out of shape. well, it depends on the fat. sumo guys sleep right after they eat 10,000 calories. it's subcutanious fat, not the deep stuff that we all suffered from. it's a healthier fat that can come off quicker, like Dx was saying. so yeah, it's bull**** when they eat like pigs, that's only an excuse to eat and stay in their class weight. look at the middleweight greek lifter from about 10 years ago. that guy had abs!

now i really think though a power lifter in the olympics is in much better shape than mr. olympia at show time. bodybuilders have to dehydrate so hard to get their skin paper thin that they are on the verge of collapse. eating so little calories while lifting heavy for weeks before the show. cutting ou****er blah blah. so to look your best in a bodybuilding show you actually have to be in your weakest state.

that being all said, the power lifter is exercising his head and different muscles. so who's really in shape from lifting? the guy who weight trains. he's got all the bone density, cardio and muscle benefit from the right routine. that's why i try not to lift too heavy and work out faster except when i'm trying for more mass. that's why working out with weights is so good for older people. it's good for the bones! later.....carbonblob

Russ, this is a subject that I could take pages to totally explain my perspective. Short version is, I personally do not think most true powerlifters are necessarily healthy or fit.  Strong - absolutely.  As a former gym owner and personal trainer I saw several folks of all sizes and ages who were undoubtedly very strong, but not necessarily healthy or fit.  Most young guys  (teens to early 20's) usually had ulterior motives for working out. Usually, it was to be more attractive to the females, and/or to improve their sports skills.  They wanted to be strong and fit, but also "buff" for the ladies.  There were some, however,  who were usually overweight, didn't fit in or have much social success at school, and who just wanted to excel at anything. Some found that their sheer body mass made them somewhat strong, they would often embrace  as a means of feeling good about something they could do "better" than others. They usually liked it because it did not require cardio, they could continue to eat a lot, and their mass or obesity was seen as a positive by most. I've also had several adult friends and gym members who were powerlifters. They ate all the time and it was usually high everything - protein, carbs, and fat. Their reasoning was that size and mass = strength. And it usually did. But, it didn't usuallyequate to being fit or healthy.  They avoided cardio and aerobic activity because they didn't want to lose mass and strength, unless they needed to drop 2 or 3 pounds to meet their weight class requirements.  I have one friend who was a competitive powerlifter for several years. He started at age 26 after being a Navy SEAL.  He was then 168 lbs. at 5'9" tall.  He began to pack on the pounds and hit the heavy weights. His workout routine was  3 days a week: Monday - bench, Wed.- deadlift, and Friday - squats. No cardio. He ate like the proverbial horse - probably 6K - 8K calories a day. His diet included Big Macs, Whoppers, french fries, and milk shakes.  Verrrry healthy eating, huh?  At his competitive peak he weighed 320+ pounds. In  sanctioned competitions he benched 600+, squatted 880+ (908 lb, all time best) ), and could deadlift 765 lbs.  I use past tense because all the heavy weight lifting took a toll on his joints and he is now dang new a cripple. He  is now 43 years old and can't lift close to half what he could, has lost a tremendous amount of muscle, but has gained even more body mass as fat.  He is now super obese and diabetic, has arthritis, multiple bone problems - in general a physical and mental mess.  It is really sad to me.  I was never close to him in  strength, but was way ahead of him in being overall fit and healthy.  At least until my heart issue**** me, which according to the cardiologists was due to heredity.  This guy actually did this to himself from all the years of heavy lifting and eating high calorie, high fat junk foods. While I am sometimes impressed with the sheer strength of powerlifters, I do not personally recommend it or think it is a healthy lifestyle.  Besides, they make forklifts, jacks and other super heavy lifting  equipment for a reason. I personally think that "health" has to include the physical and the mental aspect of one's being.  I always advocated incorporating cardio/aerobic training with the weight resistance strength training.  In fact, I did and do advise folks that if they can  only devote 30 minutes  or so a day to exercise to go with the cardio/aerobic instead of the weight training. After all, the heart is the most important mucscle in one's body.  That's my quick take on it anyways.   Bob P.S. - Was I the "Blob" you referred to in your post? If so, you are correct for now, but not for long my friend!!   BwaHahahahaha!!

Not you dude.....Carbon Blob..... Thanks for your comments.... Russ

Just my opinion, but there is very little that’s actually healthy about “any” competitive sport. I don’t care if it’s running, baseball or darts. Once you take it to a competitive level you’re taking risks that aren’t healthy for anybody.

 

Powerlifters are a strange animal and I don’t think anybody takes up powerlifting for its “health” benefits. Powerlifters in general, couldn’t care less about being able to jog a mile or looking good naked. I competed on a national level and a lot of old friends are World Record holders in powerlifting. I just happen to live in the powerlifting meca of the world Columbus, Ohio , (who knows why, but it is), so I grew up with it and look up to these guys.

 

Powerlifters use whatever they are allowed to use to lift more weight for a 1 rep max. That can be stuffing themselves into a 300.00 bench press shirt made out of 3 layers of demin or into a squat suit made of canvas material.  The wraps they use on their knees cuts off circulation to the lower legs so much they could lose a leg if they left them on for too long and in general their blood pressure goes through the roof so much on a max attempt squats and deadlift that blood has been known to blow out noses during a lift.  Powerlifting is about making the lift easier to lift more weight, by using momentum and leverage, unlike bodybuilder that try to make the lift harder and stricter. Once you get to a certain size and strength you generally have to gain weight in one form or another to gain strength. For the heavier weight classes that means more fat. For squatting and benching a big belly is actually an advantage. It’s a wider base for squatting and a higher place to touch the bar for benching. Being fat usually hurts the deadlift because you can’t bend over to get a good pulling position.

 

Strength training and powerlifting are not necessarily the same things.

 

Earl

I will "weigh" in on my own experiences and views.  When I was chasing down the 400# mark I started going to a gym and tried to lose weight.  I was a novice and was kinda lost there.  I met someone who introduced me to the deadlift.  His explanation sounded reasonable.  Calories are burned by doing work, the more work you do the more calories are burnt.  He said that by doing heavy lifts in low rep, multiple sets actually forces yoru body to do more work, build more muscle which burns more calories.  After implementing his suggestions I quickly lost 60 pounds and gained enough muscle that I could almost lift the front of a Honda Civic hatchback off the ground.  I did incorporate cardio work into my workouts, I am sure this added to my success in dropping the pounds. 

The main difference in what I did and what these other powerlifters do is this...I was not interested in competing, I only wanted to be healthy and strong.  I did not adopt the powerlifter diet, just the workout.  I am sure if I had eaten like they do I would have increased my size and strength threshold.  I do follow the sport and watch the Worlds Strongest Man competition every year.  I have noticed in that particular event, the athletes have began to look more fit.  Not as many fatties there, the winners the last few years have been guys that look like bodybuilders but can pull a full size firetruck.  They have to be quick and agile as well as strong as Babe the ox.

Check out Mariusz Pudzianowski, he won 4 times and doesn't look to have much exess adipose tissue.

Right now I am focusing on cardio and light weight training with exercise bands to drop weight for surgery, as soon as I am healthy after surgery I plan on incorporating some powerlifting and I want to get my strength back.  There is no feeling like knowing you are stronger than the average person around you.

Powerlifters are not usually lean.  Sort of like offensive linemen.  They are for the most part built for explosive power whereas defensive linemen on the other hand are built more for speed. I remember growing up a Soviet named Vasil Alexyev or something like that ruled the super-heavyweight class of powerlifters.  He looked like a real big "trucker" with a huge distended belly and a 5 o'clock shadow.  Not at all lean, but big and strong...like bull.  Today there is the rare Maurius Pudjinowski who does strong-man at a reasonably low level of bodyfat, but most are still kinda chunky..   Bodybuilders at shows are very depleted and not at all at their strongest.  They've done exhaustive cardio, dehydrated themselves, and been at a caloric deficit for weeks or months before the contest to achieve such a look.  Some have died attempting to be a ripped as possible.  Bodybuilders are strongest during their off-season when they hold some bodyfat.. Power is strength with timing.