Support Groups? For Men?
Saw a post a few days back from Atty Dallas
And wanted to drag the topic back up in case any missed it.....
(re-post, from a couple of years back, skip if you've "been there, done that...")
Support Groups? For Men?
OK, maybe my longest post ever….
-------------------------------------------------------
FINDING A WAY TO GET ALL OF THE BENEFITS
THAT YOUR LOCAL SUPPORT GROUP HAS TO OFFER.
Statistically - people who continue attending support groups
After Bariatric procedures show greater long-term success rates.
Just a fact of the "Numbers."
But, Men often complain –
---“I don’t get anything out of my support group.”
Some “write it off” as an observation about men in general, that –
----“many men in our society are isolated,
----and dis-empowered when it comes to communicating their feelings and ideas.
----…in greater need of the communion, and clarity.”
Could be…
There is also the notion that –
----“Men just don’t get into ‘Sharing’ like Women do.
----They don’t sit around and ‘Share’ themselves with others.”
There? I have to agree.
But- What does that have to do with getting the benefits out of a “Support Group?”
Sure,
We may respond negatively, and have little interest in a Group that offers to-
----“Provide a ‘Safe Place,’ free of shame and expectations,
----to nurture and move together towards a deeper understanding
----and enlightenment which naturally creates a larger space in ourselves
----for self-affirming Growth and Life-Renewal.”
(hand to heaven, this is from an actual ‘vision statement’ of a support group)
So, if you’re at all like me - “WHA?!? WHAT KIND OF NANCY-AZZ - B S IS THAT!?!”
He in lies the problem, I believe, that Many Men have with “Support Groups.”
FIRST,
They have a reputation for being way beyond what would be considered “Touchy-Feely.”
Many support groups, particularly in the field of Bariatrics,
Are dominated by Women.
It would only reason that the focus of those groups
would be modeled on female group dynamics and not those of Men.
Girls tend to play “House” and “Tea-Party” and share their dolls as children
All very “invitation and making space for others” type of play.
Boys, (even in the absence of modeled behaviors of older siblings) play “King of the Mountain,” and “Tag/Chase.” Competition rather than Invitation.
On a Psychological/Freudian level,
we are driven to “penetrate” rather than “accept” or “receive.”
Yes?
Support Groups devised by and directed by Women,
tend to work so hard to be “Accepting” and “Receptive,”
that nearly ANY amount of excess is tolerated.
A member is free to openly share EVERTHING, without being judged.
Which sounds like such a good idea!
But at some point, wouldn’t you find yourself wanting to shout- ----"Then Quit it! DON"T Eat M&M's every night!"
----“Well if you know it upsets you that bad, Stop doing that!
----Stop Whining about it - Fix It, and Move On!!! Next Topic!”
Such a ‘judgmental’ outburst would get you kicked out of most support groups.
Men tend to have less of an issue with Direct Accountability, and Expectations.
The “Straight Forward Approach” is a viable approach for many Men.
Together in the same meeting?
How could their interests both be served by the same approach?
Feminist Kate Millet puts it well-
----"Because of our social cir****tances,
----male and female are really two cultures
----and their life experiences are utterly different."
SECONDLY,
there exists this myth that Men are less “Group Social.”
The image of “The Lone Man” dealing with his problems with self-reliance
and by retreating to his “Cave.” (a little Men are from Mars.. lingo)
Perhaps this is where all of the “No Man is an Island” advice comes from,
the notion that many Men may feel that they are.
Women are often thought of as “Grouping” more than Men.
Sewing Circles, Church Ladies, those bizarre “Group Trips to the Bathroom,” etc…
But, I think that Men have a much longer tradition of “Running in Packs.”
We just haven’t applied our typical ‘group dynamic’ to the “Typical Support Group.”
Men have always been Team Players.
We just don’t think of “Support Groups”
as being anything like the typical reasons that Men join together.-
We have a History of “Lifting One Another Up!”
Military? Sports? Gangs? Pirates? Board Rooms? Scouts? Band? Drinking Buddies?
The list goes on and On.
Men have always ‘Joined Together’ for a common cause.
“Ride out with the Posse?”
“Knights of the Round Table?”
And We Are REALLY GOOD AT IT!
Many Women bemoan that fact that’s
“IT’S A MAN’S WORLD.”
Well? Because it is.
The “Good Ole Boy” Network is alive and well.
In business – 97.3% of all CEOs are Men.
93.6% of All ‘upper tier jobs’ are held by Men.
In the area of WLS?
Well, 12% to 19% of the patients are Male, but 87% of the Surgeons are.
Doctors in general are around 80% Men.
For Universities? 72% of all College professors are Men.
So if We’re – “Large and in Charge!”
Why aren’t support groups – Supporting Us?
Perhaps-The present paradigm or model of “Support Group”
needs to adjust to include --
THE NEEDS AND GOALS OF MEN.
Presently most “WLS Support Groups”
follow the many, many models set up within the medical community.
Although there are some addressing Men’s Medical Problems,
the vast majority deal specifically with Women’s issues.
“Breast Cancer Support,” “New Mothers / Post-Partum Depression Support,” etc…
How do WE GET THAT? As always- “A PLAN.”
Commitment to the idea of support, we’ve already got.
It’s what brought many of us here to OH.
So we can jump right into the Analysis of the Challenge-
SO?, What do Guys “Get out Of” Support?
What do We Want, To “Get out of It?”
Oddly enough, when I mentioned “Pirates” earlier in this post,
I did so with a reason.
Of all of the “Group Dynamics” that are thriving today,
it’s “The Bad Boys” that are experiencing the most advances and group growth. --- Gangs.
Yep, those “Drive-by-‘Pop-a-Cap-n-your-Azz’-Hoodlums of the Streets.”
What possible information could we learn from them?
Well, A Lot, Really…..
Gangs in one form or another have been for centuries.
Pirates are a great example of the original bad gangs.
The groups that usually are considered as of modern day gangs
are the Crips and the Bloods from California.
But, by definition, far more supportive than threatening-
---- “A gang can be considered to be a loosely organized
----group of individuals who collaborate together for social reasons.”
Most modern day gangs now collaborate together for anti-social reasons.
Sort of an ongoing revolution against the Status-Quo.
Sociologists have Identified or isolated the following reasons
in order of importance, for joining a street gang:
IDENTITY, DISCIPLINE, RECOGNITION / RESPECT, BELONGING , MONEY, & LOVE.
Members themselves have said in interviews
that the simple interaction of members,
listening to one another's problems and sharing the others problems
makes them feel like they “Matter, and Belong.”
“Belong” in the definition of- “being suitable or acceptable;
and “ State of being in the right place or situation.”
Younger gang members, will talk of FELLOWSHIP
and the FEELING OF SHARING AND BELONGING as their main reasons for joining a gang.
By “Discipline,” they refer to a clear “Order of Things,”
rather than “being ruled.”
All of their reasons seem to be met by joining in with others
who are like-minded for one reason or another.
The only one that seems to stand out as a value
that might not be gained from a good support group, is Money.
But, when you consider the “networking” that takes place in most social groups-
----“I know a guy who can sell you that at Wholesale…”
then the notion of financial gain coming from being part of a social group,
doesn’t seem far-fetched at all.
The most striking thing about the “Pirate” or “Gang” model for a Men’s Group
is that it holds onto one Big Aspect that is missing
from the “Medical” or “Female indoctrinated” Models-
-A VISION OF AUTHENTIC MANHOOD.
Not the typical cultural motif of modern manhood as shallow,
devoted only to competitive appearances, sexual conquest,
empty, escapist pleasures, but one that strives to “Keep It Real.”
Intense feelings, commitments, loyalties,
and honest (even if judgmental) communication.
It is a matter of members taking complete responsibility for personal wounds,
the victories and losses, the betrayals, the attacks,
the damages that are done, endured, or sanctioned.
Yes, I know, but all of these are focused on Bad things
and not Growth and Positive personal development.
That’s because the thing that brings them together is “Badness.”
Apply the same accountability structures to “Goodness,”
and you’ve got one hell of a support group!
You just can’t tell anyone about it or we’d have to kill you!
OK, So as a Member of a Methodist Men’s Prayer Breakfast Group,
I may be reaching with the “Gangster” model.
But it does offer some valuable observations.
A successful and Meaningful Men’s Support Group
should have the Four Following Attributes-
1.) Real Accountability- (Limits on what actions will be and won’t be supported.)
Unlike a typical Support Group
that will allow one gal to monopolize the conversation
or offer confessions of things they’ve done wrong,
merely to “fish” for approval from the group.
----Perhaps you recognize-
“A group member ‘confesses’ that they feel bad that they have been binging at night. They say that it makes them feel like a ‘Bad Person.’ A crowd of responses rushes to tell them that ‘It’s alright, they can’t be in control all of the time. They then receive ‘Support’ and positive reinforcement for doing the wrong thing. If one person in the group says that they ‘Shouldn’t’ do that, and that the ‘Binger’ should try to do whatever to avoid binging, others may then refer to the person who offered the advice as a ‘food-nazi.’” Ever seen this?
I’m not calling for people to keep their problems to themselves,
just approach problems as problems.
For example, when a guy asks you a question,
he’s looking for an answer, not just conversation.
Yes?
That’s why we don’t ‘chit-chat’ particularly well.
If I ask for directions, give me directions.
If I confess that I’m having a problem with eating Ice-Cream,
then tell me how you’ve avoided eating ice-cream.
Don’t focus on making sure I know I’m not a “Bad Person.” Support, not Enable. Yes?
2.) Honesty / Loyalty- (No ‘sales-pitches’ sneaking in as support for the group.)
Often, Support Groups can become havens for someone with a product to sell.
“This Great Protein Powder” is presented as merely helpful sharing of
“What worked for Me,” until you find out that the member’s sister sells it.
So, that person isn’t you.
How does “Your Honesty” or the honesty of the Group play a roll in this?
Have you ever found yourself sitting in a Support group “biting your tongue?”
Not saying something?
Faced with that person that gets way off topic and is discussing an in-law’s divorce?
Or some other non-issue that is clearly not of interest to anyone in the room?
Be open and honest enough to speak your mind.
Keeping their mouths shut out of fear of offending
is what brought down the Knights of the Round Table in Arthur’s Court.
(that whole Lance and Guin Thing.)
“Keeping it Real” is much easier
when not worrying about easily offending someone.
If the meeting is about “The Meeting” and “Not All About You,”
then it’s more likely that “The whole” will benefit,
rather than just the individuals.
You’ve got your feelings hurt?
‘Share That,’ perhaps diffuse it with humor, and then move on…
3.) Commitment- (Make time in your Life for Your Support Group.)
Ever show up at your support group and find only 4 people there?
And two of them are people you would rather miss seeing for the next 40 to 80 years?
It’s a common occurrence or complaint of many people who ‘host’ support groups.
Ever Not show up and Not even wonder what it’s like for those who did?
Even when You aren’t sure You will personally “Get Anything” out of a meeting, Go.
Your input may be the “Tipping Point” that causes a particular meeting to be Great.
4.) Dynamic Feelings-
(Yes, I used the “F-Word.” Bring all of you to Your Support Group)
If you’ve made the time, come with an open mind,
why waste the potential by guarding your heart?
This whole “Starting Life Over” Business,
is completely wrapped up in how you “Feel” about things.
Yourself? The Changes? The Surprises? The Victories? Etc…
There’s a time and place for everything.
This is the time and place for these.
At work, you can’t hold the waist of your pants out 4 inches
and yell out with a laugh- “Look at This Sh*t!!”
Well, you could, but it wouldn’t go over as well as you’d like it to.
But in a room of people who know exactly how that feels?
You Bet! FART to your heart’s content!
This is maybe one of the few situations
where others “Get” what you are Talking about and feeling.
Don’t sit there and let the time pass. CARPE DIEM!
Gangsters and Pirates? Really?
Well, not completely. But I did want to start there with an ‘off-the-wall’ example,
to break past the normal way of looking at it.
It’s not just the “Vision of Authentic Manhood”
that needs to be addressed,
but the overall model of the Social Structure of the Support Group.
Earlier I mentioned “Male Group Dynamic.”
A quick Google search of “Male Group Dynamics”
leads directly to, you guessed it- “Baboons!”
Yep, Scientists spend a great deal of time studying and writing reports
about Male/Patriarchal –versus- Female/Matriarchal Social-Structures.
The way the Males behave in a group as opposed to Females.
It’s the leading method of attempting to understand Human Social Structures.
If you add “History” to the search,
you also get hits on “Kingdoms,” as in “Kings” and their realms.
Hang with me here,
I think there is much to gain from looking high and low for answers,
so here’s what I’ve found……
The Social Order among Male Baboons
is completely defined by the “Alpha-Male.”
He’s the king of the “Clan” and gets what he wants.
Second in line is the “Beta-Male,” and he has first pick of the “Seconds.”
From there, it’s just “the rest of the guys/baboons.”
Several clans make a band, and several bands together form a troop.
Likewise the Females have an “Alpha-Female.”
Which is the one with the most children in the troop.
There is a range of “Beta-Gals” that usually are loyal to their Alpha “Mom.”
Nearly identical Social “pecking order” for the Males and Females,
EXCEPT a couple of big differences. -----
With the males, the Alpha is the Alpha for life.
His “followers” are loyal and will only join in revolution against him
if it is for “The Good of the Whole Group.”
The single male followers and the Betas,
also aren’t ‘ranked’ down some social ladder.
They each have their particular “Niche.”
The Baboon that is best at finding fruit, is “The Fruit Finder.”
The one with the best sight is “The Lookout!” and so on.
Not lower and lower steps down the social ladder, just different “Roles”
all supporting the well-being of the group.
With the Female Baboons, there is a sure order than goes from the top,
to the bottom, least respected, fed and groomed “She-boon.”
The Alpha Female gets to sit closest for the longest with the lead Alpha-Male.
Next down the line is the Beta Female who sits further from him and for less time.
The line-up continues down the line to the final despised bottom female
who rarely gets to meet the “king” and must survive on the scraps of food from the others.
Yet, the bigger difference is how this order is maintained.
It Changes Constantly!!
The minute the #8 She-Baboon goes into estrous
(in Heat, ready to Make the little Baboons)
and wags her Purple-Red Hind-End in the air, she skips to the front of the line!
Unless, # 11 Baboon has just weaned the “Kings” latest daughter,
and has just come into estrous herself,
then she jumps to the front of the line.
Monthly, even weekly or daily, the ‘roles of the Female Baboons switch drastically.
Even the Alpha Female of the group can be “kicked to the curb”
while pregnant and not feeling her personal best.
Likewise-
In all of the of the Social orders of early King’s Courts,
there is also a clear difference in the Male and Female ‘Group Dynamics.”
The King was clearly the “Alpha-Male.”
But once again, the “Second Tier” jobs,
could often be equals without being “Rivals.”
There was a certain ranking through the military,
but there was a balance of councilors, advisors, dukes, heirs to the throne,
jesters, wizards, bishops, and so on.
The “Power” was disseminated much as the “power” of the Baboons.
Each Man filled a niche,
and was the authority over his particular area of expertise.
But, The Women?
The Gals had it rough.
The Queen was the clear “Alpha-Female” but below that?
A seething and ever changing soup of “Power.
----” Who was most in favor of the Queen that week?
----Who had a dance with the prince?
“Pecking Order” could change on a glance.
Therefore, the “Art of Skillful Conversation”
rose to become a high art among the female members of the court.
Being forced to please several different whims of rapidly changing roles,
the Ladies in waiting became renowned
for being able to say anything while communicating something else entirely.
Not much different in modern day.
Men tend to pick their niche and stick with it.
If you’re lucky to have the genetics to be tall,
strong and handsome, you get to be the “Alpha-Male” in a group.
If you’re smart, a Councilor/Advisor to the Alpha.
Funny? The Jester. Dependable? The Beta-Buddy, and so on…
Women tend to remain fluid in groups.
One’s popularity can turn on a smart fashion choice,
or be lost by an ‘awkward comment.’
This skill for changing positions and loyalties as the situation dictates
strikes many men as Women just being “Fickle or Petty” at times.
It is clearly just a different approach aimed at dealing with a different set of challenges.
If a Man’s “Role” in his Social Circle,
changed every time someone else’s Azz-End got purple and swollen,
he’d get pretty good at “Skillful Conversation.”
So, we’re different, and for different reasons.
Big Deal!
We knew That.
How can this information be used
to improve a man’s experience with support groups?
Well, if you live in an area with a high enough population,
you can seek out a Men’s Support Group.
I guarantee “The Vibe” will be far different than the typical group.
Suppose you are in such a populated area, but there’s no group?
Connect up with at least one other Buddy, and start your own group.
Drop info to all of the local surgeon’s offices.
The local hospital, etc… It’ll take commitment,
but can payoff in continued long-term success.
It’s about as hard as exercise just in a different way.
But like exercise, sticking with it makes it easier each day.
But suppose you don’t have enough guys nearby to get together a carload?
What then?-----
(Well, you can participate in an Online group, like the one starting here)
or- there is---
“GETTING SOMETHING OUT OF” -YOUR EXISTING SUPPORT GROUP!
Hey, Men and Women working together are what make the world go round.
Why is your Support Group formula any different?
If it’s Female Focused / Dominated,
Then go about rising through the ranks to become the CEO that you’re destined to be!
Speak your mind. But above all, Bring something of value to the group,
and you’ll be given more voice to shape the conversation.
Yes?
If the other members of the group find what you have to share as valuable,
then they find YOU valuable.
If you are the one who “brings the map,”
and it’s clear that you know how to “get there,”
you will most likely be chosen to drive.
Yes?
As I tell my students-
“You’ll get out of a project, What you put into it.”
All of the difference and challenges aside,
There’s so much that a support group can provide.
People living in a similar experience need to generate hope for the future,
laugh about the "unique humor" aspects of their lives,
arrange social activities and have fun together!
What better group of people than those who walk in the same shoes?
Here are a few “Support Group Quotes” about what people “Get out Of” their groups---
----“I wanted to know I wasn’t the only one who was going through this.
----I wanted to know how others were dealing with the situation and how they succeeded.”
----“I hoped to see how others coped with their changes
----and maybe use some of those coping skills myself.
----I wanted to see if some of the things I was experiencing
----were ‘normal’ or ‘okay’ and if others had had similar experiences.”
----“So few others really understand or even care how we feel!
----The group helps to keep the issues in perspective.”
----“I needed other people who knew what my experience was like.
----A place where I could easily and comfortably talk about my new life –
----without anyone looking uncomfortable, bored or uneasy with my story.”
----“I didn’t know. I only knew I needed help with what I was going through.”
----“… it’s the best ‘hands-on’ tool to hear real-life questions, answers, and advise…”
HERE ARE SOME KEY POINTS TO REMEMBER:
(no particular order, just some info)
It helps to remember that you are not alone
and to realize that any feeling you may be having,
at any given time, is normal and worthy.
The benefit from support groups depends on each group and the leadership.
Each group may be different and have a different style of doing things.
YOU can help steer Your group toward success.
There is Much Power in Personal Stories.
If you can’t think of anything to “Share,” just tell your experience.
Such stories seem to give more information than the teller realizes.
OVERCOMING LOW INTEREST IN YOUR LOCAL SUPPORT GROUP?
There is natural public apathy to overcome.
As well as misinformation. “I heard that my friend’s cousin…”
Is a fairly good indicator of -“Misinformation To Follow!”
Drowning out these stories with your own real ones
and those you encourage others to share, will strengthen your support group.
Also don’t rule out “Press-Leaks.”
It’s an odd (semi-political) way of saying it, but well-chosen personal stories,
pitched to local newspapers and television by a united group,
can have a tremendous impact, not only on building Support group attendance and interest,
but even changing how each community views WLS!
Do learn from the Baboons-in-Waiting-- remain flexible.
Groups often cannot please everyone all of the time.
Know that if this months meeting seemed a boring waste of time,
do what you can to make the next one better or more useful to more people.
Be a Gangster! Keep it Real and for the good of the Whole.
Many Support Groups may struggle to deal with differences in needs,
differing desires for emphasis, and other issues.
This leads to frustration in a lot of groups.
Leaders (and those moving into leadership positions)
should be aware of the different needs/concerns of various groups within the whole.
Take a cue from the OH message Boards.
It’s not all “facts and figures” nor is it all lighthearted amusement.
Just like our diets, it’s best to strive for Balance.
People attend a support group to meet one another and experience camaraderie
with others with similar problems.
If support groups' meetings become a long list of presentations,
stressful problems, etc.,
and one feels drained upon leaving their support group rather than uplifted,
then we may be missing the point. So, I would always consider adding some fun!
Also, fun or not, make sure that there is something “gained from” attending.
Handout, product sample, great new story, joke, etc… SOMETHING!
To get an idea of what “other Groups” are up to---
While the style of content of the group meetings varied considerably,
still most rely on interaction discussions as the main procedure for meetings.
Some also use used educational presentations in their meetings often or as special diversions.
Family members attend some of the groups.
Some groups meet every other week and others once a month.
1) Topics discussed in groups include- self-esteem,
----body image, recovery, family, relationships, nutrition,
----exercise and even coping with post-op depression
2) Focus of group meetings can be specific to a topic for that individual meeting-
----such as- insurance, diet, protein supplements, vitamins, exercise, etc…
3) Benefits of the groups seem to be the most common:
----sharing, support, letting members know
----they are not alone and that others are “Being There doing That” too…
----(little variation on Been there, done-that…)
4) Positive elements of any group: honesty, support, empathy, education
5) Negative elements of the group: some members focused on the negative,
----some are not committed and some monopolize group time.
You may not think talking to a bunch of strangers could be any help at all.
Maybe you don't want people to see your insecurities and uncertainties,
Or maybe you feel it's your problem and it's just too personal to share.
Whatever the reason, those approaches guarantee
that you’ll stay in isolation and fight the battle alone.
LAST BUT NOT LEAST WRAP – UP:
(dam! I told you it would be long….)
SET YOUR REALISTIC EXPECTATIONS….
The first time you go to a support group meeting, you may be disappointed.
Conversation may not flow, or it may flow too much
and you may not get a chance to say anything at all.
One person may dominate the conversation
and you may not be the least bit interested in what they're saying.
It may not seem like it's for you at all.
Not every support group will be right for you
and maybe you should try to find another if the one you're in doesn't seem to fit.
But the benefits of being around others
who share many of the same problems you do can be so advantageous to you.
You'll find that many of the feelings you don't even admit to yourself are shared by others.
Many of the unique problems you seem to encounter daily are not so unique after all.
Solutions to baffling situations may become evident to you as you listen to others.
Time and again I've heard others say, "I found out I wasn't alone!"
when talking about support groups.
It's a statement that's part of nearly every one’s story.
If you haven't joined (or started) a support group, think about it.
“THERE IS NO DELIGHT IN OWNING ANYTHING - UNSHARED.” ~ Seneca ~
Best Wishes- Dx
OK, maybe my longest post ever….
-------------------------------------------------------
FINDING A WAY TO GET ALL OF THE BENEFITS
THAT YOUR LOCAL SUPPORT GROUP HAS TO OFFER.
Statistically - people who continue attending support groups
After Bariatric procedures show greater long-term success rates.
Just a fact of the "Numbers."
But, Men often complain –
---“I don’t get anything out of my support group.”
Some “write it off” as an observation about men in general, that –
----“many men in our society are isolated,
----and dis-empowered when it comes to communicating their feelings and ideas.
----…in greater need of the communion, and clarity.”
Could be…
There is also the notion that –
----“Men just don’t get into ‘Sharing’ like Women do.
----They don’t sit around and ‘Share’ themselves with others.”
There? I have to agree.
But- What does that have to do with getting the benefits out of a “Support Group?”
Sure,
We may respond negatively, and have little interest in a Group that offers to-
----“Provide a ‘Safe Place,’ free of shame and expectations,
----to nurture and move together towards a deeper understanding
----and enlightenment which naturally creates a larger space in ourselves
----for self-affirming Growth and Life-Renewal.”
(hand to heaven, this is from an actual ‘vision statement’ of a support group)
So, if you’re at all like me - “WHA?!? WHAT KIND OF NANCY-AZZ - B S IS THAT!?!”
He in lies the problem, I believe, that Many Men have with “Support Groups.”
FIRST,
They have a reputation for being way beyond what would be considered “Touchy-Feely.”
Many support groups, particularly in the field of Bariatrics,
Are dominated by Women.
It would only reason that the focus of those groups
would be modeled on female group dynamics and not those of Men.
Girls tend to play “House” and “Tea-Party” and share their dolls as children
All very “invitation and making space for others” type of play.
Boys, (even in the absence of modeled behaviors of older siblings) play “King of the Mountain,” and “Tag/Chase.” Competition rather than Invitation.
On a Psychological/Freudian level,
we are driven to “penetrate” rather than “accept” or “receive.”
Yes?
Support Groups devised by and directed by Women,
tend to work so hard to be “Accepting” and “Receptive,”
that nearly ANY amount of excess is tolerated.
A member is free to openly share EVERTHING, without being judged.
Which sounds like such a good idea!
But at some point, wouldn’t you find yourself wanting to shout- ----"Then Quit it! DON"T Eat M&M's every night!"
----“Well if you know it upsets you that bad, Stop doing that!
----Stop Whining about it - Fix It, and Move On!!! Next Topic!”
Such a ‘judgmental’ outburst would get you kicked out of most support groups.
Men tend to have less of an issue with Direct Accountability, and Expectations.
The “Straight Forward Approach” is a viable approach for many Men.
Together in the same meeting?
How could their interests both be served by the same approach?
Feminist Kate Millet puts it well-
----"Because of our social cir****tances,
----male and female are really two cultures
----and their life experiences are utterly different."
SECONDLY,
there exists this myth that Men are less “Group Social.”
The image of “The Lone Man” dealing with his problems with self-reliance
and by retreating to his “Cave.” (a little Men are from Mars.. lingo)
Perhaps this is where all of the “No Man is an Island” advice comes from,
the notion that many Men may feel that they are.
Women are often thought of as “Grouping” more than Men.
Sewing Circles, Church Ladies, those bizarre “Group Trips to the Bathroom,” etc…
But, I think that Men have a much longer tradition of “Running in Packs.”
We just haven’t applied our typical ‘group dynamic’ to the “Typical Support Group.”
Men have always been Team Players.
We just don’t think of “Support Groups”
as being anything like the typical reasons that Men join together.-
We have a History of “Lifting One Another Up!”
Military? Sports? Gangs? Pirates? Board Rooms? Scouts? Band? Drinking Buddies?
The list goes on and On.
Men have always ‘Joined Together’ for a common cause.
“Ride out with the Posse?”
“Knights of the Round Table?”
And We Are REALLY GOOD AT IT!
Many Women bemoan that fact that’s
“IT’S A MAN’S WORLD.”
Well? Because it is.
The “Good Ole Boy” Network is alive and well.
In business – 97.3% of all CEOs are Men.
93.6% of All ‘upper tier jobs’ are held by Men.
In the area of WLS?
Well, 12% to 19% of the patients are Male, but 87% of the Surgeons are.
Doctors in general are around 80% Men.
For Universities? 72% of all College professors are Men.
So if We’re – “Large and in Charge!”
Why aren’t support groups – Supporting Us?
Perhaps-The present paradigm or model of “Support Group”
needs to adjust to include --
THE NEEDS AND GOALS OF MEN.
Presently most “WLS Support Groups”
follow the many, many models set up within the medical community.
Although there are some addressing Men’s Medical Problems,
the vast majority deal specifically with Women’s issues.
“Breast Cancer Support,” “New Mothers / Post-Partum Depression Support,” etc…
How do WE GET THAT? As always- “A PLAN.”
Commitment to the idea of support, we’ve already got.
It’s what brought many of us here to OH.
So we can jump right into the Analysis of the Challenge-
SO?, What do Guys “Get out Of” Support?
What do We Want, To “Get out of It?”
Oddly enough, when I mentioned “Pirates” earlier in this post,
I did so with a reason.
Of all of the “Group Dynamics” that are thriving today,
it’s “The Bad Boys” that are experiencing the most advances and group growth. --- Gangs.
Yep, those “Drive-by-‘Pop-a-Cap-n-your-Azz’-Hoodlums of the Streets.”
What possible information could we learn from them?
Well, A Lot, Really…..
Gangs in one form or another have been for centuries.
Pirates are a great example of the original bad gangs.
The groups that usually are considered as of modern day gangs
are the Crips and the Bloods from California.
But, by definition, far more supportive than threatening-
---- “A gang can be considered to be a loosely organized
----group of individuals who collaborate together for social reasons.”
Most modern day gangs now collaborate together for anti-social reasons.
Sort of an ongoing revolution against the Status-Quo.
Sociologists have Identified or isolated the following reasons
in order of importance, for joining a street gang:
IDENTITY, DISCIPLINE, RECOGNITION / RESPECT, BELONGING , MONEY, & LOVE.
Members themselves have said in interviews
that the simple interaction of members,
listening to one another's problems and sharing the others problems
makes them feel like they “Matter, and Belong.”
“Belong” in the definition of- “being suitable or acceptable;
and “ State of being in the right place or situation.”
Younger gang members, will talk of FELLOWSHIP
and the FEELING OF SHARING AND BELONGING as their main reasons for joining a gang.
By “Discipline,” they refer to a clear “Order of Things,”
rather than “being ruled.”
All of their reasons seem to be met by joining in with others
who are like-minded for one reason or another.
The only one that seems to stand out as a value
that might not be gained from a good support group, is Money.
But, when you consider the “networking” that takes place in most social groups-
----“I know a guy who can sell you that at Wholesale…”
then the notion of financial gain coming from being part of a social group,
doesn’t seem far-fetched at all.
The most striking thing about the “Pirate” or “Gang” model for a Men’s Group
is that it holds onto one Big Aspect that is missing
from the “Medical” or “Female indoctrinated” Models-
-A VISION OF AUTHENTIC MANHOOD.
Not the typical cultural motif of modern manhood as shallow,
devoted only to competitive appearances, sexual conquest,
empty, escapist pleasures, but one that strives to “Keep It Real.”
Intense feelings, commitments, loyalties,
and honest (even if judgmental) communication.
It is a matter of members taking complete responsibility for personal wounds,
the victories and losses, the betrayals, the attacks,
the damages that are done, endured, or sanctioned.
Yes, I know, but all of these are focused on Bad things
and not Growth and Positive personal development.
That’s because the thing that brings them together is “Badness.”
Apply the same accountability structures to “Goodness,”
and you’ve got one hell of a support group!
You just can’t tell anyone about it or we’d have to kill you!
OK, So as a Member of a Methodist Men’s Prayer Breakfast Group,
I may be reaching with the “Gangster” model.
But it does offer some valuable observations.
A successful and Meaningful Men’s Support Group
should have the Four Following Attributes-
1.) Real Accountability- (Limits on what actions will be and won’t be supported.)
Unlike a typical Support Group
that will allow one gal to monopolize the conversation
or offer confessions of things they’ve done wrong,
merely to “fish” for approval from the group.
----Perhaps you recognize-
“A group member ‘confesses’ that they feel bad that they have been binging at night. They say that it makes them feel like a ‘Bad Person.’ A crowd of responses rushes to tell them that ‘It’s alright, they can’t be in control all of the time. They then receive ‘Support’ and positive reinforcement for doing the wrong thing. If one person in the group says that they ‘Shouldn’t’ do that, and that the ‘Binger’ should try to do whatever to avoid binging, others may then refer to the person who offered the advice as a ‘food-nazi.’” Ever seen this?
I’m not calling for people to keep their problems to themselves,
just approach problems as problems.
For example, when a guy asks you a question,
he’s looking for an answer, not just conversation.
Yes?
That’s why we don’t ‘chit-chat’ particularly well.
If I ask for directions, give me directions.
If I confess that I’m having a problem with eating Ice-Cream,
then tell me how you’ve avoided eating ice-cream.
Don’t focus on making sure I know I’m not a “Bad Person.” Support, not Enable. Yes?
2.) Honesty / Loyalty- (No ‘sales-pitches’ sneaking in as support for the group.)
Often, Support Groups can become havens for someone with a product to sell.
“This Great Protein Powder” is presented as merely helpful sharing of
“What worked for Me,” until you find out that the member’s sister sells it.
So, that person isn’t you.
How does “Your Honesty” or the honesty of the Group play a roll in this?
Have you ever found yourself sitting in a Support group “biting your tongue?”
Not saying something?
Faced with that person that gets way off topic and is discussing an in-law’s divorce?
Or some other non-issue that is clearly not of interest to anyone in the room?
Be open and honest enough to speak your mind.
Keeping their mouths shut out of fear of offending
is what brought down the Knights of the Round Table in Arthur’s Court.
(that whole Lance and Guin Thing.)
“Keeping it Real” is much easier
when not worrying about easily offending someone.
If the meeting is about “The Meeting” and “Not All About You,”
then it’s more likely that “The whole” will benefit,
rather than just the individuals.
You’ve got your feelings hurt?
‘Share That,’ perhaps diffuse it with humor, and then move on…
3.) Commitment- (Make time in your Life for Your Support Group.)
Ever show up at your support group and find only 4 people there?
And two of them are people you would rather miss seeing for the next 40 to 80 years?
It’s a common occurrence or complaint of many people who ‘host’ support groups.
Ever Not show up and Not even wonder what it’s like for those who did?
Even when You aren’t sure You will personally “Get Anything” out of a meeting, Go.
Your input may be the “Tipping Point” that causes a particular meeting to be Great.
4.) Dynamic Feelings-
(Yes, I used the “F-Word.” Bring all of you to Your Support Group)
If you’ve made the time, come with an open mind,
why waste the potential by guarding your heart?
This whole “Starting Life Over” Business,
is completely wrapped up in how you “Feel” about things.
Yourself? The Changes? The Surprises? The Victories? Etc…
There’s a time and place for everything.
This is the time and place for these.
At work, you can’t hold the waist of your pants out 4 inches
and yell out with a laugh- “Look at This Sh*t!!”
Well, you could, but it wouldn’t go over as well as you’d like it to.
But in a room of people who know exactly how that feels?
You Bet! FART to your heart’s content!
This is maybe one of the few situations
where others “Get” what you are Talking about and feeling.
Don’t sit there and let the time pass. CARPE DIEM!
Gangsters and Pirates? Really?
Well, not completely. But I did want to start there with an ‘off-the-wall’ example,
to break past the normal way of looking at it.
It’s not just the “Vision of Authentic Manhood”
that needs to be addressed,
but the overall model of the Social Structure of the Support Group.
Earlier I mentioned “Male Group Dynamic.”
A quick Google search of “Male Group Dynamics”
leads directly to, you guessed it- “Baboons!”
Yep, Scientists spend a great deal of time studying and writing reports
about Male/Patriarchal –versus- Female/Matriarchal Social-Structures.
The way the Males behave in a group as opposed to Females.
It’s the leading method of attempting to understand Human Social Structures.
If you add “History” to the search,
you also get hits on “Kingdoms,” as in “Kings” and their realms.
Hang with me here,
I think there is much to gain from looking high and low for answers,
so here’s what I’ve found……
The Social Order among Male Baboons
is completely defined by the “Alpha-Male.”
He’s the king of the “Clan” and gets what he wants.
Second in line is the “Beta-Male,” and he has first pick of the “Seconds.”
From there, it’s just “the rest of the guys/baboons.”
Several clans make a band, and several bands together form a troop.
Likewise the Females have an “Alpha-Female.”
Which is the one with the most children in the troop.
There is a range of “Beta-Gals” that usually are loyal to their Alpha “Mom.”
Nearly identical Social “pecking order” for the Males and Females,
EXCEPT a couple of big differences. -----
With the males, the Alpha is the Alpha for life.
His “followers” are loyal and will only join in revolution against him
if it is for “The Good of the Whole Group.”
The single male followers and the Betas,
also aren’t ‘ranked’ down some social ladder.
They each have their particular “Niche.”
The Baboon that is best at finding fruit, is “The Fruit Finder.”
The one with the best sight is “The Lookout!” and so on.
Not lower and lower steps down the social ladder, just different “Roles”
all supporting the well-being of the group.
With the Female Baboons, there is a sure order than goes from the top,
to the bottom, least respected, fed and groomed “She-boon.”
The Alpha Female gets to sit closest for the longest with the lead Alpha-Male.
Next down the line is the Beta Female who sits further from him and for less time.
The line-up continues down the line to the final despised bottom female
who rarely gets to meet the “king” and must survive on the scraps of food from the others.
Yet, the bigger difference is how this order is maintained.
It Changes Constantly!!
The minute the #8 She-Baboon goes into estrous
(in Heat, ready to Make the little Baboons)
and wags her Purple-Red Hind-End in the air, she skips to the front of the line!
Unless, # 11 Baboon has just weaned the “Kings” latest daughter,
and has just come into estrous herself,
then she jumps to the front of the line.
Monthly, even weekly or daily, the ‘roles of the Female Baboons switch drastically.
Even the Alpha Female of the group can be “kicked to the curb”
while pregnant and not feeling her personal best.
Likewise-
In all of the of the Social orders of early King’s Courts,
there is also a clear difference in the Male and Female ‘Group Dynamics.”
The King was clearly the “Alpha-Male.”
But once again, the “Second Tier” jobs,
could often be equals without being “Rivals.”
There was a certain ranking through the military,
but there was a balance of councilors, advisors, dukes, heirs to the throne,
jesters, wizards, bishops, and so on.
The “Power” was disseminated much as the “power” of the Baboons.
Each Man filled a niche,
and was the authority over his particular area of expertise.
But, The Women?
The Gals had it rough.
The Queen was the clear “Alpha-Female” but below that?
A seething and ever changing soup of “Power.
----” Who was most in favor of the Queen that week?
----Who had a dance with the prince?
“Pecking Order” could change on a glance.
Therefore, the “Art of Skillful Conversation”
rose to become a high art among the female members of the court.
Being forced to please several different whims of rapidly changing roles,
the Ladies in waiting became renowned
for being able to say anything while communicating something else entirely.
Not much different in modern day.
Men tend to pick their niche and stick with it.
If you’re lucky to have the genetics to be tall,
strong and handsome, you get to be the “Alpha-Male” in a group.
If you’re smart, a Councilor/Advisor to the Alpha.
Funny? The Jester. Dependable? The Beta-Buddy, and so on…
Women tend to remain fluid in groups.
One’s popularity can turn on a smart fashion choice,
or be lost by an ‘awkward comment.’
This skill for changing positions and loyalties as the situation dictates
strikes many men as Women just being “Fickle or Petty” at times.
It is clearly just a different approach aimed at dealing with a different set of challenges.
If a Man’s “Role” in his Social Circle,
changed every time someone else’s Azz-End got purple and swollen,
he’d get pretty good at “Skillful Conversation.”
So, we’re different, and for different reasons.
Big Deal!
We knew That.
How can this information be used
to improve a man’s experience with support groups?
Well, if you live in an area with a high enough population,
you can seek out a Men’s Support Group.
I guarantee “The Vibe” will be far different than the typical group.
Suppose you are in such a populated area, but there’s no group?
Connect up with at least one other Buddy, and start your own group.
Drop info to all of the local surgeon’s offices.
The local hospital, etc… It’ll take commitment,
but can payoff in continued long-term success.
It’s about as hard as exercise just in a different way.
But like exercise, sticking with it makes it easier each day.
But suppose you don’t have enough guys nearby to get together a carload?
What then?-----
(Well, you can participate in an Online group, like the one starting here)
or- there is---
“GETTING SOMETHING OUT OF” -YOUR EXISTING SUPPORT GROUP!
Hey, Men and Women working together are what make the world go round.
Why is your Support Group formula any different?
If it’s Female Focused / Dominated,
Then go about rising through the ranks to become the CEO that you’re destined to be!
Speak your mind. But above all, Bring something of value to the group,
and you’ll be given more voice to shape the conversation.
Yes?
If the other members of the group find what you have to share as valuable,
then they find YOU valuable.
If you are the one who “brings the map,”
and it’s clear that you know how to “get there,”
you will most likely be chosen to drive.
Yes?
As I tell my students-
“You’ll get out of a project, What you put into it.”
All of the difference and challenges aside,
There’s so much that a support group can provide.
People living in a similar experience need to generate hope for the future,
laugh about the "unique humor" aspects of their lives,
arrange social activities and have fun together!
What better group of people than those who walk in the same shoes?
Here are a few “Support Group Quotes” about what people “Get out Of” their groups---
----“I wanted to know I wasn’t the only one who was going through this.
----I wanted to know how others were dealing with the situation and how they succeeded.”
----“I hoped to see how others coped with their changes
----and maybe use some of those coping skills myself.
----I wanted to see if some of the things I was experiencing
----were ‘normal’ or ‘okay’ and if others had had similar experiences.”
----“So few others really understand or even care how we feel!
----The group helps to keep the issues in perspective.”
----“I needed other people who knew what my experience was like.
----A place where I could easily and comfortably talk about my new life –
----without anyone looking uncomfortable, bored or uneasy with my story.”
----“I didn’t know. I only knew I needed help with what I was going through.”
----“… it’s the best ‘hands-on’ tool to hear real-life questions, answers, and advise…”
HERE ARE SOME KEY POINTS TO REMEMBER:
(no particular order, just some info)
It helps to remember that you are not alone
and to realize that any feeling you may be having,
at any given time, is normal and worthy.
The benefit from support groups depends on each group and the leadership.
Each group may be different and have a different style of doing things.
YOU can help steer Your group toward success.
There is Much Power in Personal Stories.
If you can’t think of anything to “Share,” just tell your experience.
Such stories seem to give more information than the teller realizes.
OVERCOMING LOW INTEREST IN YOUR LOCAL SUPPORT GROUP?
There is natural public apathy to overcome.
As well as misinformation. “I heard that my friend’s cousin…”
Is a fairly good indicator of -“Misinformation To Follow!”
Drowning out these stories with your own real ones
and those you encourage others to share, will strengthen your support group.
Also don’t rule out “Press-Leaks.”
It’s an odd (semi-political) way of saying it, but well-chosen personal stories,
pitched to local newspapers and television by a united group,
can have a tremendous impact, not only on building Support group attendance and interest,
but even changing how each community views WLS!
Do learn from the Baboons-in-Waiting-- remain flexible.
Groups often cannot please everyone all of the time.
Know that if this months meeting seemed a boring waste of time,
do what you can to make the next one better or more useful to more people.
Be a Gangster! Keep it Real and for the good of the Whole.
Many Support Groups may struggle to deal with differences in needs,
differing desires for emphasis, and other issues.
This leads to frustration in a lot of groups.
Leaders (and those moving into leadership positions)
should be aware of the different needs/concerns of various groups within the whole.
Take a cue from the OH message Boards.
It’s not all “facts and figures” nor is it all lighthearted amusement.
Just like our diets, it’s best to strive for Balance.
People attend a support group to meet one another and experience camaraderie
with others with similar problems.
If support groups' meetings become a long list of presentations,
stressful problems, etc.,
and one feels drained upon leaving their support group rather than uplifted,
then we may be missing the point. So, I would always consider adding some fun!
Also, fun or not, make sure that there is something “gained from” attending.
Handout, product sample, great new story, joke, etc… SOMETHING!
To get an idea of what “other Groups” are up to---
While the style of content of the group meetings varied considerably,
still most rely on interaction discussions as the main procedure for meetings.
Some also use used educational presentations in their meetings often or as special diversions.
Family members attend some of the groups.
Some groups meet every other week and others once a month.
1) Topics discussed in groups include- self-esteem,
----body image, recovery, family, relationships, nutrition,
----exercise and even coping with post-op depression
2) Focus of group meetings can be specific to a topic for that individual meeting-
----such as- insurance, diet, protein supplements, vitamins, exercise, etc…
3) Benefits of the groups seem to be the most common:
----sharing, support, letting members know
----they are not alone and that others are “Being There doing That” too…
----(little variation on Been there, done-that…)
4) Positive elements of any group: honesty, support, empathy, education
5) Negative elements of the group: some members focused on the negative,
----some are not committed and some monopolize group time.
You may not think talking to a bunch of strangers could be any help at all.
Maybe you don't want people to see your insecurities and uncertainties,
Or maybe you feel it's your problem and it's just too personal to share.
Whatever the reason, those approaches guarantee
that you’ll stay in isolation and fight the battle alone.
LAST BUT NOT LEAST WRAP – UP:
(dam! I told you it would be long….)
SET YOUR REALISTIC EXPECTATIONS….
The first time you go to a support group meeting, you may be disappointed.
Conversation may not flow, or it may flow too much
and you may not get a chance to say anything at all.
One person may dominate the conversation
and you may not be the least bit interested in what they're saying.
It may not seem like it's for you at all.
Not every support group will be right for you
and maybe you should try to find another if the one you're in doesn't seem to fit.
But the benefits of being around others
who share many of the same problems you do can be so advantageous to you.
You'll find that many of the feelings you don't even admit to yourself are shared by others.
Many of the unique problems you seem to encounter daily are not so unique after all.
Solutions to baffling situations may become evident to you as you listen to others.
Time and again I've heard others say, "I found out I wasn't alone!"
when talking about support groups.
It's a statement that's part of nearly every one’s story.
If you haven't joined (or started) a support group, think about it.
“THERE IS NO DELIGHT IN OWNING ANYTHING - UNSHARED.” ~ Seneca ~
Best Wishes- Dx
Capricious; Impulsive, Semi-Predictable 
I think the longer term success of those that attend is an attribute of keeping it a priority and in the forefront of our lifestyle.
As I continue to be involved with support groups, I continue to learn WLS related stuff that I benefit from, be it knowledge or inspiring experiences.
Besides the help I receive either directly or indirectly, it is also an opportunity to be helpful to others which I also feel as rewarding and motivational to continue to be successful because your advice is more powerful if you are having success others can see and not "Oh how I wish I had done this differently so I wouldn't have failed and put my weight back on".
Gee Dx,....you should maybe do some more research on this subject matter. Have you considered being a colleger professor? Oh yeah,...you are,....good call.
Enjoyed the material. You do good work. Thansk for taking the time to put this together an put it out here. I think it is a valuable topic to review and encourage for us guy types. If we don't get involved, support group will always be female dominated,...not that that is a bad thing. They sure are easier to look at!! DiD I say that out-loud???
Great job, DX (and thanks for the "plug"!)
I woudl just add a real life experience here that kinda drives the point home about being the only M in a WLS support group (and no disrespect to my group - I lub 'em all!):
We were sitting there in Starbucks that a.m. when one of the gals brought up the subject of PS and boob jobs being needed. Some gals talked about how theirs were big and others how small theirs were, pre or post-op. It even got to the point where the gals were talking about how they had boobuses when they lean forward, but want them to look that big even when standing up ... one gal opined how her own were so small it didn't make any difference if she was leaning forward or not.
&:-D)
I guess while the above conversation was going on and getting quite lively, the gals suddenly realized I was quiet and felt kinda out of place at the moment .. I quickly pointed out that I had, since my 200+ lbs. weight loss, and putting my hands on them, demonstrated how I had moobs and that they were now badly saggy and would need to be lifted/removed through PS. That kinda broke the tension and I think they realized I had something somewhat in common with them in that regard! &:-x)
Most Active
Recent Topics
