Outness-OT

I have been meeting some women for dating and don't know if this is just me or not....but it bugs me when they aren't out as much as I am....like maybe not to their family or not at work.

To me, this means that if I get involved with them, that our relationship won't be out...or will be partially closeted....and this bothers me.

Is this a normal feeling or am I being picky? What do you peeps think?

deb366

Hate to use the "N" word, but I think you are 'normal' whatever that means....

closets are for clothes :)


Though if you live say in Saudia Arabia or a muslim country where are gonna be stoned to death or worse... I can imagine that closet would feel quite loverly.

But here in the majority of the western world, yes it may be tough,  but we are free to be who and what we are. There may be reprocussions. But for me, I simply am what I am.

Part of this healing process and reclaiming process for me is about simply being comfortable in my own skin. Who I am, who you are.  Much of that is about who I love, who you love. Who I love is very much an open book for me. I will not cloak it in shame.

have had enough self loathing to last me a lifetime, thank you very much.

d'ladybug


*so happy my new mentor here had given me a new nickname and I love it, I am claiming it as mine, all mine!!! *

Thanks. d'ladybug...

I just don't think orientation has that much to do with the work you do...and just the 'fear' part I can't handle...Doesn't matter who you are or how you look, or who you are attracted to...not everyone in the world is going to like you or accept you. That just seems a given...at least you can be who you are...

So would you stay out of a relationship because of someone being in the closet??

PS. And I admit I am a femme looking so it is not obvious to people that I am queer.

deb366

uhmmmm... well that depends on several factors

Back in 97, before the world trade center... I was involved with a women who was regular career army. She had to teach the dang don't ask don't tell policy for goodness sake.

She was very much proud of being with me, but just had to be very careful. Didn't matter that I was  fat, either. I think I had bigger issues with it all then she did. I was very protective of her career, more so than she was. She offered to quit the army several times, just so we could live our lives out and proud. I am glad to say I did not let her do so. And she just retired last year with over 30 years, and I am dang proud of her for sticking with it, even when she did not want to.

And I pass for straight too, another femme here. She was a classic lipstick butch, my GI Jane. When 9/11 happen things changed, things got very tense on base where she lived. When she got deployed, I thought I was gonna just die, she cut her hair just like that and was even sexier than Demi Moore, but I digress...

I became a travel  nurse, so I could be wherever she was stationed, and I  moved to Utah where she was stationed and was very afraid of being out. Which for me was odd, since I was never in to begin with. I have known I was queer, preferred women since I was like 4 years old. I would torture the little boys though with mud pies, I would make them eat. They would do it too, that was fun, but again I do digress.

The Mormon culture was completely new to me and I did not know what to expect. I admit I was afraid. My nursing license was at stake, had to protect myself. They hold a lot of power there.  I was very surprised in the long run to meet some incredible people who never judged me and are still my friends to  this day. Conservative republicans who were nothing but supportive and caring. Shocking I know.

Not sure what my  point is, but I think there can be exceptions to most  any rule one sets for one's self. For me anyways, I can see where I simply have to be gentle with myself and the woman I love.  For me, I believe Love can Conquer All. Yeah, I am a dreamer... lol Even nursing my broken heart here, I still believe in Love. That is just my nature.

Though in truth it has not been much of issue, as the people I am usually attracted to these days, can not hide who they are. The butches have it a lot harder than us femmes. They can not pass, can not hide in the crowd. I have known so many that can not even use a public bathroom. Have to look for those single stall bathrooms, like they have at Starbucks. Many have been beat up, harassed or even arrested.

And the few femmes I have been involved with, well... we were in the theatre world together, again, it was a non-issue.  Very creative types. The art world, is a very gay world, theatre and the arts. Still love em to this day.

For me a bigger issue is their past relationships, as an indicator of how they respond and react to good times and bad times. I try to find patterns, things they are likely to repeat. I try to see if they are of the same ethical bent as me, and do not dispose of people, lay waste to people's lives.

I am just tired of the disposal mentality some folks have with people, places, and things. So yeah, I think I could get over the fact they might be in some variation of a closet, on some level or another if they are kind and true. I can not get over it if they are cruel and insensitive schmucks. And one of the ways I can judge that is by what they have done previously, how they treat their ex's to this day.

It is all about respect. Perhaps your point of view is that being in the closet does not feel validating, or respectful of who and what you are.

Just a guessing here. But I do know folks that can not be with anyone that is closeted. For me, it is never that cut and dry. I have a vivid wild imagination and I can imagine exceptions to pretty much almost anything and story lines of many variations.

Interesting topic...
d'ladybug

I generally prescribe to the "all things in balance" and that includes 'rules'. So I know on some level this is my issue. I think it is an issue for me because ultimately I believe we can only treat others as well as we treat (and love and accept) ourselves. To me that is where 'kindness' or acceptance comes from. And on some level, not being out signifies an inablity to be ones' self. Some things like being overweight, or butch, or a person of color...is so obvious, it is not like you can hide it. The what you see is what you get phenomena. And you know the people who like you, like you for you....I think that is one reason why sometimes when folks lose weight there is a part of them that feels like an imposter or like people who never were nice to us before, are being nice to us now. (see I digress too)

But, I guess for me now....in my real life, I want it to be okay if I have a partner, I am lousy at keeping secrets....and ultimately hope to have someone who wants to be open about there relationship with me. I am a sucky liar...and don't want to live my life that way....it is too hard....and I want to be transparent...as much as I can be.

Thanks d'ladybug for having this conversation with me....it has helped me think out the topic more....it started with one woman I went out with, and she is closeted at work, so since she lives and works in a small town, no one knows she is a lesbian, then last night had a skype date with someone who is out in their community, but not with their family...and ultimately, I think we are just on different paths....it takes energy to hide, and I need my energy for living, not hiding...

thanks Diane!!

deb366

Good point about the energy. It does take a lot of energy to hide.

And I really like your point about needing your energy for living. I need all the energy I can possibly find for this healing path I am on. I have a lot I want to accomplish, all of which takes energy.

Too many energy vampires out there as it is, no need to invite any more into my life.

is that mean of me?

oh well, it is what it is

There is only so much time we have left on this planet, I am tired of wasting anymore of it.

I want to live!

Yeah to life! Yeah to lots of energy! Yeah to living healthy! Yeah to letting go of our own 'baggage' and not taking on other peoples!

deb366

Deb,

I don't think you're unusual for feeling that way.  I am right there with you.  One of my favorite sayings:  To thine own self be true."  I understand why some may choose to stay closeted, but for me, honesty is the best way to go.  Even my father and his family know I am gay (despite being staunch homophobes)...and I've made it quite clear that I will not go in the closet or change to appease anyone.  I have lost jobs for being out...which is one of the reasons I went into business for myself.  If it bothers you, I'd go with your instincts (if I were you)...

Yes, I just think if you keep something so closeted it is almost like you are saying it is bad...in our society bad/scary means we don't discuss it.

My father told me (before I said I was now with a woman) that if I was, I better not tell him because it would 'kill' him. Told him anyway, he lived and my partner at the time (now ex) was a great support (years later!) through his dying and his funeral. At the end he would always ask how she was doing, and say he was so glad I had someone to 'take care of me'. So if my parents could adjust (very conservative), I think many more could. It is not always easy to come out...but easier than secrets that undermine the relationship. Lies do not build intimacy. Thanks for your input Leza!

Hey Deb... another totally out femme here.  You have already gone through the transition of coming out in all areas of your life.  You deserve to stay out of the closet in all areas.  If you are starting to date a woman who keeps a foot in the closet... either she comes out or you walk.  Sounds harsh... but really... you deserve to be happy.  And putting any part of who you are back in the closet would be horrible and detremental to your health and well-being.  Talk to the woman about it.  Let her know it's a major red flag concern of yours.  If you want to give it a go with her, then she will have to come out.  Don't be someone you're not anymore.