How many carbs for marathon training?

So, my lovely BF coached water polo for years, and was a competitive swimmer. As he watches my marathon training, he has wondered if i'm getting enough carbs, that I get really tired.

So i'm still following 40-30-30, not trying to lose (5 pounds under goal), and i'm a *****icken when it comes to carbs. I rarely get over 90 grams, with over 100 grams of protein. Rare that I eat grains, or rice and pasta. I suppose I need to be serious about my training, but I feel like this might be a slippery slope for when training is over (although, I do plan on training for my first half-iron as soon as I have recovered from the marathon).

Thoughts?

Here's kinda what I do: on non-running days, I keep (or try to) my carbs around 80g. On days where my runs are under 8 miles, I don't do much different but also don't freak if my carbs get up to around 100g. On long run days, especially over 13 miles, I do a GU and my carbs probably range in 100-150g for the day. I do at the very least 100g protein daily, but on running days I really try to focus on 2:1 ratio, sometimes getting as much as 200g protein (especially when I've got nearly 2000 to go thru for the day after a long run). Hope this helps!

Oh wow!! I don't think i've ever gotten over 140 grams of protein in a day. I guess adding a second shake would help on my long runs. This makes sense to me.

I guess more than anything, I have to realize that i'm just fueling myself, not feeding myself when I add more carbs. I'm too protein focused, as, like most of us, i'm terrified of regain.

Regain scares me too, but I had to come to terms w/ the choice of marathon fueling overriding rigidly following RNY rules. So I compromise.... RNY rules on non-training days w/ a little extra carbs on running days. And if that means a little extra lbs during training, so be it. Training will be over after Marine Corps in Oct. And if it means eating differently from my carb-loading running buddies, so be it. RNY's for life!

My experience is that if I'm tired, it's because I'm not taking my recovery seriously.

Some people seem to think carbs are these magic things that cure all the evils in society. LOL But really they are just calories when it comes down to it. I mean there are no "essential" carbs that our body can't make by itself like there are essential fatty acids and essential amino acids (proteins). They are just a handy source of quick energy.

If you are training for a marathon, you need to be making sure you get enough sleep, that you have adequate recovery between your long runs and that after every run you have proper recovery nutrition including a small snack of 100-200 calories with about 3:1 carb to protein ration and the protein should include branch-chain amino acids.

Also, DURING your runs, you do want to ingest carbs. Because that's when your body needs quick energy. But hours afterwards? Your energy needs aren't really different than someone who doesn't run. You need energy, but if you work in a office like most of us, you don't need *quick* energy.

IMO, athletes need around 1g of protein per pound of body weight per day. I eat high protein/high fat/low carb during the day and then I eat carbs around my training. So maybe 30 min before a run or long bike ride or swim workout, I'll have a piece of fruit. Then during the workout, if it's longer than an hour, I'll drink a sports drink or eat something sugary/carby -- fruit or cookies or fun-size Pay Day bars or a gel or those cool Powerbar baby food pouches are my go-to fuels but everyone has their favs -- and then after the workout, I have a recovery snack.

When I training for Ironmans, I consume 2000 calories a day and about 150-175 g of that are carbs. When I'm just doing regular workouts, my calories drop down into the 1500-1700 range and therefore my carbs do as well. I try to always get at least 120 g of protein though and often get 150 g a day. It works out to be about 1/3 protein, 1/3 carbs and 1/3 fat.

Racing Weight by Matt Fitzgerald is a VERY interesting book and though it has nothing to do with RNY, it has everything to do with diet and getting LEAN!

As we transition from RNY patient to ATHLETES, the generic information no longer relates to us, I have an EXCELLENT Case Study given to me by my NUT that addresses this specifically.  In a nutshell, we need to hydrate more, and FUEL our bodies for the endurance training.

That brings me back to Racing Weight.  I was refered to this book by another RNY runner in my program and I read it recently and I am starting to incorporate the information from it into my personal diet.

First thing, improve the overall quality of your food.

Eat more of this:  Fruits, Vegetables, Lean Meats & Fish, Nuts & Seeds, Whole Grains & Dairy

Eat LESS of this:  Refined Grains, Sweets, Fried Foods, Fatty Proteins

 

On Carbs specifically, for ENDURANCE athletes

Training Volume

< 4 hours = 2-2.75 g/lb        So if you weigh 150 pounds that is 300-412.5 carbs per day!!

5-6 hours = 2.75-3.25 g/lb

There is more to the chart but it just goes up from there... you will probably read this and think holy moly!!  All I can say is read the book, it is backed up by solid data gathered from TOP athletes in various fields.  The book is for ENDURANCE athletes.

So, that said, I am eating more carbs than ever, they are higher quality carbs (Whole Wheat toast, Peanut Butter and Banana for breakfast after my run this morning) and I am NOT gaining weight.  I am also NOT exhausted or as fatigued...my body is learning how to fuel itself for the runs.

I hope this helps a bit...

Sam

EDIT to say I realize these numbers are Way way way over what the NUTs are telling you and I AM working with my NUT to make sure I am properly fueling for the training I am doing.  I am "only" running about 20-25 miles a week right now, sometimes 30 on long run weekends.  The amount of calories burned on those runs is insane.

Read the book, PM me and I can send you more details about the Case Study or the book.

http://mattfitzgerald.org/

Personally I think these numbers are Old School thinking on nutrition. I know a lot of endurance athletes that are eating more low carb these days and not seeing their performance suffer for it. If anything, it's improved! I'm talking about the ones who are always on the podium too, not the ones who barely make the cutoffs.

When I was training for an Ironman, the days I'd go for a 6-8 hour bike ride, I'd hit 300-400 g of carbs on *that day*. But the days when I'd just workout 1-2 hours, I would not. You need carbs to fuel your workouts but you don't need carbs to fuel sitting at a desk. If you sit a desk 8 hours a day and workout 1-2, you don't need 400 g of carbs for your entire day and no study really says you do. Those studies are being over-interpreted IMO.

Here is his article, this has a bit more insight.  Much of his book is based on the current diets of those dominating Iron Man and similar Tri.

http://triathlon.competitor.com/2013/04/nutrition/racing-wei ght-balancing-your-diet_24561

http://beta.active.com/running/Articles/The-New-Rules-of-Mar athon-Nutrition.htm

http://beta.active.com/running/Articles/The-New-Rules-of-Mar athon-Nutrition-How-Many-Carbs

"For example, a study conducted by Asker Jeukendrup and colleagues at the University of Birmingham, England, compared the effects of a 41 percent carbohydrate diet and a 65 percent carbohydrate diet during an 11-day period of intensified run training. On the low-carb diet, performance levels decreased and the runners' self-reported fatigue levels increased. On the high-carb diet, performance and energy levels were maintained."

...

"All of this science if quite interesting, but even more valuable is the example set by the most successful runners. The best runners in the world, as everyone knows, are the Kenyans. The diet of the typical Kenyan runner is 76 percent carbohydrate. Compare that to the diet of the typical American, which is less than 50 percent carbohydrate. Kenyan runners get the majority of their calories from ugali, a dish made entirely from cornmeal, that supplies a whopping 38.5 grams of carbs per half-cup serving. The only runners whose abilities rival the Kenyans are the Ethiopians. The diet of the typical Ethiopian runner is 78 percent carbohydrate!"

 

I've heard his talk and read excerpts from the book. I am not convinced. For one thing, I have little genetically in common with a Kenyan. For another, there is a TON of research on how to get your body to burn fat during a workout -- which is very, very important for endurance athletes because we have limited glycogen stores -- and eating a ton of carbs is not the way to do it. This is very recent science though.

One thing you have to realize about Fitzgerald is that he tends to cherry pick his data. He's been called out on it before.

The other thing to be careful of is "logic" that goes "the so-and-so people do X and they _____, therefore _____" You can't isolate out the impact of whatever it is you are advocating for by pointing to the habits of an entire ethnical group like that. An ethnic group may have the diet you want but they also have a similar set of genetics, environment, upbringing, etc. to each other, but most likely not to you.

I see that argument made all the time by vegetarians. They often point to a group of 7th Day Adventists who live near me and apparently have a longer lifespan than average compared so *all* meat eaters. See? they say. The vegetarian diet is healthier than a diet containing meat! What they conveniently leave out of this equation is that members of this community do not, for the most part, have cars and so they walk everywhere. They also eat "clean" because it's mostly organic stuff they grow themselves. Not processed crap like fast food. So it's not comparing apples to oranges and it doesn't control for the impact of exercise.

Metabolic Efficiency Training is also a good read and bridges the diet and effort to train the body how to optimize fat burning.

Many of the new performance diets avoid grains and focus on fresh fruits and veggies.

 

The key to these training regimes is working in the right effort or your body will pay.