Body Rebellion

Yo Gang!   Love your posts, haven't be on the boards as regular lately.

New experience for me,...and I'm looking for some help/insight from you fellow postop running types.

I got side tracked from my regular 5-6 days a week /20-28 miles a week training back in May.  June was almost nothing.  July I got out some but still no regularity.  Last week of July I picked it up as I have to get serious bout prep for 13 miler Nov 15 I am registered for.  I don't have the wind/breathing I had before the layoff but am going faster too so I guess that factors in.  Example, I did 4.25 miles Monday in 25 minutes doing fartlek, approximately half mile jog, walk a couple of minutes, .5-1 mile jog, walk a couple of minutes, jog, walk a bit and finish jogging with sprint 100 yards to finish.  Tuesday 3 mi slower jog took 25 min. Wednesday 9 holes of golf and thighs are hurting and legs feel rubbery.  Today, Thursday, I still feel way more fatigued than I think is normal. I just had blood work done last week and all is normal.. I am getting 160 to 200 gms of protein a day, 5-8 bottles of water, and I take 2 multi vits with iron a day, and potassium and magensium  supplements.  I also get my b-12 (2500 mg a day) in the mornings and a B complex liquid.

Am I missing something for just feeling the rewards of being 51 yrs old? 

I did an really kick butt interval work out 7/23 (1 mile jog warmup from home to the local track, 2 miles at the track - walk 50 yds, jog/100 yds/sprint 100-150 yds x 8 (laps), and a 1 mile cool down jog home). I followed this with a ez 40 min 3 mi jog the next day then a day off and didn't feel the soreness and fatigue I am having now.  Then I missed a week of running with digging post holes and mounting campaign signs for my effort to be elected to local City Council in Nov
(12 signs/24 holes, 18-24 " deep in ground so dry and hard I had to chisel the ground and remove th loose dirt with the post hole diggers - that real kicked my butt and my hands!!!)

I am sure I need regularity in my program and I am gunning for that but I am so fatigued right now, I'm getting concerned about my recovery capability.  This is different for me than it has been  since surgery 9/06. 

Any thoughts or wisdom??

Hello Joe,
How many grams of carbohydrate are you consuming a day?

On average, approximately 300-400 gms a day from (usual intake) protein bars, granola bars, fruit (bananas, strawberries, and/or apples (peeled), and whole wheat bread, and (2 or 3 times a week for lunch or dinner at my desk) Chef Boy-ar-dee beef ravioli.  I still occassionally (twice a week on avg) take down a reduced fat PB and banana sandwich on wheat.

Whats your take on that?

I'm thinking along the same lines as Jeremy about fuel, but I also wanted to add my nickle.

As you know, I'm also not so young (42).  I can tell you that on my third day in a row running that the run is even harder on me than the long 10-miler on the weekend.  I started a base running plan in addition to tri training since I'm signed up for another full marathon in January.  The plan goes 10-3-off-4-4-4-off.  That third day of 4 is TOUGH and NEVER feels good especially since it's the second half of a brick workout.  I've been training regularly all year and still have times that I'm really fatigued. 

Option 1: Running too much or too fast after your hiatus since you aren't in the shape you were in.  I've noticed that it's easier to start full tilt after some time off, but it doesn't last long.  Probably just need to work into it a little slower for the next couple weeks.

Option 2:  Not eating enough and/or not replenishing soon enough.

Sorry, but that's all the input I have for you.  I still have weeks that every single workout sucks, but it's usually better the next week.  I don't move up in speed or distance after I have those bad weeks, and that helps me stay motivated.

Linn

Thanks Linn, I apprciate your nickle any time.  I'm already gaining weight so I am hesitant to do more carbs but,.... I suspect there is a balance between taking in and burning off that will come into play also as I get back to increased mileage since the body fat ratio is still slowing going down too (last surgeon check up July 31 I was at 19%).  I just hate to confront reality that maybe I just am not going to recover as fast as I get older.  Maybe I am getting after it too much too quick too,...I hear you and it makes sense.  I tend to do that sort of thing.  I guess I am more interested in , should I ,...does it work to push myself to work through tthe fatigue or am I setting myself up for injury and that would really destroy my training? 

Hey Joe,

I would be afraid that having that much fatigue will actually hinder your progress.  If I'm not careful, when I'm fatigued my form suffers.  I honestly don't think it's worth it to push through the fatigue too much.  I guess I wouldn't do any more than 15-20 miles for a couple weeks and work back up from there.  Work in the speed if you want, but limit the miles until the fatigue eases up a little.

That's what I'd do...

Linn

I'll give that a whirl.  Thanks!

Hello Joe,
Sorry I did not get back to you yesterday. Got crazy around here. Anyway, a few things here.....

1. It is more difficult to recover as you age.

2. To kind of build upon what Linn said, detraining occurs pretty rapdily (more quickly than most of us would like it to). So, if you are trying to resume previous intensity or durations, you will certainly feel fatigued. It may take a little wihle to bring yourself back up to your previous level of fitness.

3. Fatigue can be good and it can be bad. When developing preiodized training programs there is something called a concentrated load. This generally appears at the beginning of a mesocycle and consists of pretty high volumes of exercise. A concentrated load will cause a significant level of fatigue with high volumes of exercise. For example lets say a particular mesocycle is four weeks long but the first two weeks of that mesocylce would consist of the following:

First week - a concentrated load (high volumes)
Second week - an unloading week to alllow for recovery. this does not mean you do nothing but volumes are decreased to allow for recovery.

During the concentrated load week your sport specific performance may actually decrease do to fatigue. But, as you recover from that fatigue your sport specific fitness should return and actually bring you to a higher level of fitness. In this instance fatigue is not bad. If however, you do not allow for proper recovery and continue to increase or accumulate fatigue, this could certainly cause problems.

4. Nutrition obviously plays a big role in recovery and performance. Knowing that you are post-op RNY, I understand that you do have some level of restriction. From your previious response and conversations we have had, I also know you are trying to eat for performance. Let's say you are averaging 180 grams of protein a day and 350 grams of carbohydrate a day (fat intake not known at this time). That is 2120 calories a day from protein and carbohydrate. You most likely consume another several hundred calories from fat to bring that total to perhaps 2500 calories/day. I know from your blog that your weight is stable around 238 pounds.

You are primarily an aerobic athlete and we can establish what your needs may be for performance and recovery. This of course would influence fatigue.

For an enfurance athlete you will need 1.2-1.7 grams protein per kg of bodyweight. You weigh about 108 kg so lets split the difference and say you need 1.5 grams of protein per kg. This would bring your protein needs to 162 grams a day. You are pretty much on target with protein. For carbohydrates, an endurance athlete may need anywhere from 5-19 grams of carbohydrate per kg of body weight. Yes, I know that is a lot and I would not suggest for you to consume carbohydrates in those higher ranges (this depends highly upon what stage of preparation/competition and the type of event). You could certainly benefit from carbohydrate intake in the lower ranges. Let's say you need 5 grams per kg of body weight. That would bring your totals to 540 grams of CHO.

In order to recover from an endurance training session you can use some of the following guidelines.

- 1 gram of CHO per kg of body weight within 30-60 minutes after exercise. This should also be accompanied by ten grams of protein (yes, just ten). This can be done again 2-3 hours after exercise is complete. I understand that this may be difficult so to the restrictive nature of RNY, but do what you can. This is absolutely crucial for the replenshment of glycogen. During the several hours after endurance exercise, especially if you are training for a 13 miler, protein should NOT outnumber carbohydrate intake. This does not mean you should not consume protein after endurance exercise but you only need moderate amount right after exercise (10-20 grams). Carbohydrate should without a doubt be the focus when it comes to recovery and minimizing fatigue. As you can see, significant portion of you CHO intake should occur in the hours after training.

5. I won't go into great detail here but carbohydrate consumption prior to and during long bouts of endurance exercise is advised.

 

Thanks for this info Jeremy.  I'm having a great deal of difficulty eating soon enough after my longer runs/workouts and then I tend to crash - especially after a brick workout because they are both pretty high intensity.  I did notice that taking some fruit with me to the gym to eat pretty shortly after has helped keep me from crashing so badly, so it looks like that's what I need to do.  It wouldn't matter so much, but I'm starting pharmacy school soon and will be sitting in classes within 1.5 hours after my workouts.  I would hate to fall asleep during class!

Linn

Yeah it is incredibly important to get proper muscle glycogen resynthesis/replenishment. Let's say you start with a "full tank" of muscle glycogen at the beginning of the week. Then, you deplete glycogen with your first training session and don't eat correctly afterwards. As a result, glycogen does not return to pre exercise levels and you start with less the next training session. This keeps compounding itself as the week goes on and by the end of the week you are just flat beat! 

Good luck with Pharm school. Where are you going? I am hoping to start my PhD next fall.