Terri, You around this weekend, mainly tonight? I'll give you a call. About that group, can you email the link. Love ya! ~Van

I say we start discussing from Tek's list of interesting topics! The very first one, "The Sham that is Prayer." I like to say "Nothing fails like prayer!" People who pray like to believe that when they get what they asked for, their prayer was heard. OJ's mother declared after his acquittal that "the prayers of the righteous" prevailed. So that meant god liked OJ more than Fred Goldman? And of course we've all heard what seem like excuses when a prayer isn't answered. It's "not god's will" or "it's not in god's timing." I continue to be amazed by the willingness of people to make excuses when their god fails to come through for them. How else could they could deal with the disappointment? So why don't they abandon this uncaring god? Or begin to believe that the phone line to heaven's been disconnected? Is it because they're simply incapable of even imagining the possibility that there never was anyone listening? Considering prayer on another level, however, can we totally discount it as a sham? People often credit their god with something they accomplished themselves. A belief that prayers have power might actually bolster the power of will for some people. They're playing a mind trick on themselves and don't even know it. There's definitely some positive value in that in many cases. My own grandmother had an extremely strong belief in the power of prayer. Of course, it wasn't the prayer; but her belief in it that worked for her. Her subconscious mind would tell her what she most wanted to believe. She would interpret that as answers to prayers and she would be consoled or strengthened or whatever she needed! It worked for her! People believe what they most want to believe and I think for some people that comes through in what they believe about prayer. I feel that there is no need for prayer when you do not suffer under the belief that your life and destiny are at the whim of a mercurial diety. But "What's great about being an atheist" is another whole discussion!

I absolutely agree, Dona. Well said! Jessica

Thanks a ton for the support Dona! I belong to a Yahoo group that does not allow the religious zeolots. Everyone is screened before approval into the group. The discussions are interesting and informative. Interesting things get posted and you get to see articles and literature you may have never come across otherwise. I enjoy conversing with others like myself as I tend to find them more educated and thoughtful than our religious counterparts. I appreciate agnostics but view them as people afraid to take that leap. It is always safer to stay in the middle. I was agnostic for many years. I finally got the courage to just make that leap. Not having the bindings of religion allows me freedom of thought and experience I would not have otherwise. I believe in a womans right to choose, stem cell research, cloning, and anything else that further advances our species. We are but a fleeting moment in this planet's history. The dinosaurs lived much longer than us and were wiped out in a single moment. We are foolish to think that would never happen to us. Without the restrictions of religion, our potential is limitless. Anyway, I have to actually work for a living so we will chat later.

Yes Terri, I was under the assumption that this board would NOT be a place where we would be subjected to religious people coming to criticize, question, and challenge us or as you pointed out, come out of curiosity. I was hoping for a place where I'd find like-minded individuals to discuss anything we chose, from how we view and deal with the existence of religion in our world to managing our weight loss issues from a non-spiritual perspective. Religious sentiment overwhelmingly pervades this website; we need a safe space away from that to discuss how we're dealing with the massive transformation WLS can bring.