I had to add this as I had and angry reader accusing me of not knowing my facts. Here is my response. James Madison, American president and political theorist (1751-1836). "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution." "In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people." "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." [April 1, 1774] The hocus-pocus phantasy of a God, like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads, had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands and thousands of martyrs. -- Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson's Works, Vol. IV, 360 Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must approve the homage of reason rather than of blind-folded fear. Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences.... If it end in a belief that there is no god, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others it will procure for you. -- Thomas Jefferson, to Peter Carr, 10 Aug. 1787. (original capitalization of the word god is retained per original) George Washington, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washinton uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance. From: George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX) The following is put in in pieces. I can give you the entire link if you need it for the article. His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. [ * 'to' added in October, 1892. ] In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer This would make The addiditon well after our founding fathers. The under god had nothing to do with the foudation in which this country was built. Please do your own research before accusing others of not. I never speak of things I do not resarch first. Regards, Terri

Athiesm is a belief, but it is not a religion, if you see the distinction. You believe there is not a monster under your bed. It is a belief until you prove it is or isn't (generally by looking). BUT, if you believe the monster may be invisible, or may be non-corporial, then you are left with the belief that it is not there. It is not the existence of non-belief... It is a belief in non-existence. Tek

LOL, you slay me Dona. Anyway, I agree, how can humans have free will if when they choose the 'incorrect' path, they're doomed by the invisible sky guy. That doesn't sound like free will to me.

Edie - Cyn - the factory era - Mohamed Ali. . . . These are a few of my favorite things. And now, I run to the 'powder room' before having a laughing accident after reading this thread!!!!

Well yes Gordon, in my theoretical scenario St. Peter threw up the stop sign based on a lifetime of church truancy! I have to admit I've never been interested in having any kind of lengthy discussion with any Christians so I really don't know how they'd explain if there's a god who supposedly knows everything about me from before I even existed, then wouldn't he know how I'd turn out and know I was "born to be doomed"? Religious people seem to have varying theories on the concept of free will but they all do seem to agree they consider their god to know everything about everything. And of course I can't count how many times I've been told that prayers are being said that "my heart will be opened." Well it hasn't happened yet so I guess I'm pretty resistant to that god's powers since supposedly if he wanted to, he could make me do whatever he wanted.... I am now envisioning myself in a black leather biker jacket with "Born to Be Doomed" on the back.