Who the F knows?

Hey All, Thanks for pointing me to this mb Dona. I have a somewhat confused belief system in relation to the idea of god. I was raised in a big Irish catholic family. At the ago of 12 I simply refused to go to church with my family. I didn't really go back again until I was married, and in truth, that was to please my folks. I didn't receive any formal higher education until well into my 30s. I enrolled in several anthropology and women's studies classes. I began to research creationism and evolution, as well the history of patriarchy and misogyny. It is my opinion that christianity, as well as other big money making organized religions (cults if you please) exist to control and squash individuals and independent thought. The new testament is a book threaded with violent, threatening imagery, much of it against women and children, intended to frighten the masses into obedient submission. Maybe Jesus, the man, did exist. Maybe there was a woman named Mary who gave birth to him. I don't know. But it is obvious that the bible and new testament were created as a means to control people. The colonies were born out of biblical ideals set forth by the framers of the constitution. The puritan value system is bible based. I still feel as I felt at 12yo. I do not like being force fed the idea that some big man lives up in the sky and is watching my every move so I better be good or else. Is it god up there? Santa? I think not. And, if god exists, please I need some answers. Why is the US better than the rest of the world? Why would god bless america and not iran or zaire? Why would god let Jon Bennett Ramsey's mother turn her into a child prostitute look-alike if he knew she was going to be killed? I'd hope a decent god would have spared her the humiliation. Why does god want me to give him my money on the religious channels? Why did god allow georgie bush to buy the election? Why won't god cure juvenile lymphoma? Why does god give provide for white people better than people of color? Why won't god let the cubs win another world series? Now, as I approach 40, I would describe my relationship with the church as sentimental. I have memories of saying good-byes to people I loved who've died, of attending baptisms, etc. The church I have attended in my life was built with a lot of my grandfather's money and jewels he bought for the church. Countless relatives have been married, annointed and buried from this particular church. Stepping through the doorway conjuers a myriad of memories for me -- but not so much god based. I guess I enjoy the feelings associated with some of my memories. Like going to CCD in the 3rd grade and the teacher being so sweet to me when she knew I was having a rough time. The church is a part of my culture. Do I pray? Prayer has been given such a bad rap. Does praying really have anything to do with religion of even spirituality? When I hold a good thought for you, am I praying? If I hope all goes well for you during your surgery, does it mean god is listening because I want god to? I don't know? Is god really an eight ball? Ask again later? I support the right of all people to believe is what they choose. The mentioning of god, mohammed, jesus, etc. doesn't bother me. You have a right to believe whatever you choose. However, like the telemarketer who keeps calling, eventually I will get irritated with a cheerleader for god who annoyingly attempts to 'convert' me. I have escorted several friends to family planning centers. I've been approached and by screaming jesus groupies and I have ignored them in the way I have learned to ignore people, wearing $100.00 athletic shoes and leather jackets, who are begging me for pocket change in front of Walgreens. Maybe god does exist and has been shaking a collectively conscious head at us while thinkin', 'Man, they are really f-ing up but good!" Or, maybe we are all participants in god's little ant farm. On the other hand, I may be going to hell for posting this. ;)

FYI to the members---Katie is a cool chick from here in Chicago. Please extend her a welcome. Katie, we're having a little problem right now and I just can't give you a proper response to your post!

Well I'm back from an intense workout and some time in the sauna. My email program is having some maintenance or something so I am blissfully unaware if anyone has sent me any *****y mail and I can just ENJOY Katie's post for the thoughtful, incisive discussion it is. This kind of posting is what this board was supposed to be about! But Katie, I warn you if you write me back that this response is rude I will be forced to do the mature thing. I will find where you live and leave a flaming bag of poo on your doorstep. I've noticed among various friends that they simply grow out of religion. Like you, they come to associate it with family connections and memories and those rites of passage like First Communion and the big dinner everybody went out for afterward at the restaurant with the fabulous ice cream sundaes. And what you remember most was the ice cream sundae. People grow up, they become educated, they notice that a cultural anthropology class answers more questions for them than Sunday School ever did, they become less involved with their extended family, and before you know it, their religious beliefs have evolved into something more like a personal spirituality. And why not? I've never had any real religious faith to abandon. I've been asked many times if I became disillusioned with religion and the answer would be no. I decided the whole thing seemed like a crock from the time I was about SEVEN. I can look at it and see the inherent illogic that I would never be able to get past. I do wonder why people still cling to it. It's all so completely irrational and even totally ridiculous to me that I can't figure out why anybody believes ANY of it anymore! The convoluted "explanations" people concoct to explain their god's "mysterious ways" are just too much for me. I can't figure out how they can talk themselves into that stuff. I could ask myself, what would I get if I decided to turn religious? What could I have that I dont' have now? Nothing! I'm already a darn happy person, especially now that I'm whipping the one big problem I've had all my life. I have a great family, great friends, peace in my mind and heart. Heck I even think I have a nice face that will only get better lookin' as I get smaller. Some religious people say they think their god gives them everything they have in their life. Well, I'm not wanting for anything so either he's giving it away to the heathens or I'm doing just fine on my own. OK then we're down to the whole "eternal life" issue. This is where it gets totally irrational to me on two levels. First of all, there's no evidence of any kind of spirit world or afterlife. So let's suspend our disbelief and consider this: I live a perfectly good life. I'm not a bad person. The Big Ten? I never "break" any of 'em. I'm a good daughter, a good friend, a good neighbor, a good citizen. I'm even a good driver! So after my ashes are put into that nice columbarium niche at Graceland Cemetery, let's say I find myself, my spirit self or whatever, at some kind of judgment day. St. Peter says talk to the hand because I didn't BELIEVE. I didn't WORSHIP. So this god who, if we follow religious logic, made me exactly as I am and would know everything about me, is pissed because I didn't suitably grovel in worship and supplication all my life. And for that I deserve for the trap door to open and I fall into some pit of flame where I can spend eternity roasting weenies with cool folks like John Lennon and Ayn Rand. Quite simply, why would I want to have anything to do with a god like that???? Sounds more like an abusive husband to me. Love me or suffer the consequences! Like I'm going to buy into that....

You don't break any of the 10 commandments? So you keep the sabbath holy? And yes, of course the idea of a god who made you knowing that you wouldn't believe and knowing that that would cause him to cast you into hell is repugnant.

Well yes Gordon, in my theoretical scenario St. Peter threw up the stop sign based on a lifetime of church truancy! I have to admit I've never been interested in having any kind of lengthy discussion with any Christians so I really don't know how they'd explain if there's a god who supposedly knows everything about me from before I even existed, then wouldn't he know how I'd turn out and know I was "born to be doomed"? Religious people seem to have varying theories on the concept of free will but they all do seem to agree they consider their god to know everything about everything. And of course I can't count how many times I've been told that prayers are being said that "my heart will be opened." Well it hasn't happened yet so I guess I'm pretty resistant to that god's powers since supposedly if he wanted to, he could make me do whatever he wanted.... I am now envisioning myself in a black leather biker jacket with "Born to Be Doomed" on the back.

LOL, you slay me Dona. Anyway, I agree, how can humans have free will if when they choose the 'incorrect' path, they're doomed by the invisible sky guy. That doesn't sound like free will to me.

If I had six fingers I could tattoo D-O-O-M-E-D on them. I think maybe you can have free will but "he" already knows what you're gonna pick....??