WLS'rs- Why do you do this to yourselves?
(deactivated member)
on 8/2/09 11:44 pm, edited 8/3/09 12:00 am - , FL
on 8/2/09 11:44 pm, edited 8/3/09 12:00 am - , FL
Now, just a quick question...while your young and have no problem with keeping up with all the supplements for fear of malnutrition....(not saying that you don't have to watch with an RNY, but you do absorb more nutrients from food than with the DS)...what happens when you get older, and the Alzheimer's or dementia kick in...and most of us may have to deal with that in reality....who is going to watch you then...since you all are teetering on the malnutrition fence? Will your children come over several times a day to monitor what you are taking in...will they run you back in forth to the Dr's to help you deal with decision YOU made early on in life.
In making my decision...I considered the long term effects, not only for me...but the strain I would be putting on my family.
But good luck to you
In making my decision...I considered the long term effects, not only for me...but the strain I would be putting on my family.
But good luck to you
TanyaF
on 8/3/09 1:26 am
on 8/3/09 1:26 am
"what happens when you get older, and the Alzheimer's or dementia kick in...and most of us may have to deal with that in reality....who is going to watch you then...since you all are teetering on the malnutrition fence? Will your children come over several times a day to monitor what you are taking in...will they run you back in forth to the Dr's to help you deal with decision YOU made early on in life. "
I am in no way getting in on which surgery is better but had to comment on this part of the post. It kinda cracked me up. Cause I had the RNY and suffer from severe malnutrition and for a long time my family had to do all this stuff cause I cant remember to do it. So I didn't have to wait til i got older (I was 34 at the start of my saga) for the dementia.
Why do you think that with the RNY there is not a problem with malnutrition? I was almost 4 yrs out before mine set in and boy did it set in with a bang. So--my decisions did cause a huge strain on my family. Emotional, physical and financial. I have to run back to the Dr's ALL the time cause of my decision. There is a big problem with malnutrition with the RNY and anyone out there that doesn't think so better get in some research before you die. I have been/or currently am deficient in B1-B12-Folic Acid-Iron. You know all the fun ones that can cause death.
I am in no way getting in on which surgery is better but had to comment on this part of the post. It kinda cracked me up. Cause I had the RNY and suffer from severe malnutrition and for a long time my family had to do all this stuff cause I cant remember to do it. So I didn't have to wait til i got older (I was 34 at the start of my saga) for the dementia.
Why do you think that with the RNY there is not a problem with malnutrition? I was almost 4 yrs out before mine set in and boy did it set in with a bang. So--my decisions did cause a huge strain on my family. Emotional, physical and financial. I have to run back to the Dr's ALL the time cause of my decision. There is a big problem with malnutrition with the RNY and anyone out there that doesn't think so better get in some research before you die. I have been/or currently am deficient in B1-B12-Folic Acid-Iron. You know all the fun ones that can cause death.
Just like any elderly person who forgets to take their meds, I'll expect some kind of assisted living arrangements. I don't consider myself teetering on the malnutrition fence at all, for I'm healthier than I've ever been. I've not so much as gotten a cold in almost 4 years.
You forget that while RNY has more absorption, the DS has more stomach capacity. We eat a lot more than the standard RNY, so keep that in perspective when you're considering how much we're absorbing. Also, different things are absorbed at different levels.
Malabsorption levels
82% fat (add butter and full fat cheeses)
50% protein (but you should see how much I eat of this)
40% complex carbs
Honestly, it's not hard to keep up. Malabsorption is an advantage to the DSers, not a side-effect. I worry more about those growing old that have specific food intolerance (dumping) and very limited capacity than me, for you couldn't tell by watching me eat that I had any type of wls, for I eat as much as a normal thin person. I have no doubts that as long as my mind is sharp, I'll take care of myself just fine.
Valerie
DS 2005
There is room on this earth for all of God's creatures..
next to the mashed potatoes
Amy Farrah Fowler
on 8/3/09 2:11 am
on 8/3/09 2:11 am
On August 3, 2009 at 6:44 AM Pacific Time, Jennifer M. wrote:
Now, just a quick question...while your young and have no problem with keeping up with all the supplements for fear of malnutrition....(not saying that you don't have to watch with an RNY, but you do absorb more nutrients from food than with the DS)...what happens when you get older, and the Alzheimer's or dementia kick in...and most of us may have to deal with that in reality....who is going to watch you then...since you all are teetering on the malnutrition fence? Will your children come over several times a day to monitor what you are taking in...will they run you back in forth to the Dr's to help you deal with decision YOU made early on in life. In making my decision...I considered the long term effects, not only for me...but the strain I would be putting on my family.
But good luck to you
I know lots of older folks, and a few with some degree of dementia (even my own grandmother and father), and all of them take some sort of meds. In fact, the ones related to me take things for cholesterol, blood pressure and pain, which are all meds that I no longer take since my DS. I'd trade the meds for vitamins any day.
Since you don't know, if I need help with meds post DS, we'll handle it the same way we do with all older people that take lots of meds (cuz old people usually DO). We utilize pill containers with timers and alarms to remind, or have a person that lives with them assist in remembering, or if they live alone, we hire proper assistance weather it's someone who comes by at regular intervals, or assisted living. You do the same thing you do for every person who has Alzheimer's. sheesh.
(deactivated member)
on 8/3/09 2:26 am, edited 8/3/09 2:27 am - , FL
on 8/3/09 2:26 am, edited 8/3/09 2:27 am - , FL
I didn't attack...I asked a question...since you all have so much experience with it...but you attacked. Its not a shee****hat's why a lot of us RNYr's are worried about even posting...you all are vicious...I went over the DS boards to to get a feel for what life is like for those people..and I have never seen so much vulgarity and profanity. Maybe its a hormonal thing for you all, but you respond with condescending answers and seem to be thumbing your nose at us for not choosing to do it your way.
Maybe you should all stand back for a minute and read your responses to us...your not getting the word out for the positive. You are just chasing people away.
Maybe you should all stand back for a minute and read your responses to us...your not getting the word out for the positive. You are just chasing people away.
Amy Farrah Fowler
on 8/3/09 2:55 am, edited 8/3/09 2:57 am
on 8/3/09 2:55 am, edited 8/3/09 2:57 am
Actually, I thought you needed to step back and read your question before posting. I've thought that about most of your posts.
Seriously, how is taking supplements any different than taking any medication with Alzheimer's.
Not surprised you're going to throw in some BS about hormones or calling me vicious or profane, but in all honesty, that question was stupid.
We will all deal with taking things if there is dementia the same way. Regardless of DS, RNY, no surgery, vitamin pill, cholesterol pill or xanax.
ETA - you keeping saying "attacked". ?? I wasn't saying in the earlier post that you attacked, I said the word "asked", did you misread something, cuz your reply was confusing.
Seriously, how is taking supplements any different than taking any medication with Alzheimer's.
Not surprised you're going to throw in some BS about hormones or calling me vicious or profane, but in all honesty, that question was stupid.
We will all deal with taking things if there is dementia the same way. Regardless of DS, RNY, no surgery, vitamin pill, cholesterol pill or xanax.
ETA - you keeping saying "attacked". ?? I wasn't saying in the earlier post that you attacked, I said the word "asked", did you misread something, cuz your reply was confusing.
Talk about condescending! Maybe you should read your original question over again. Did you really want to know that answer or were you just trying to slyly make some kind of a point? We are NOT teetering on the fence of malnutrition. Malabsorption does not equal malnutrition.
No body attacked you, they just answered your question.
We are FREE from the guilt that we have felt for years as we struggled to lose weight numerous times. Why is it so hard for everyone to understand that we are SO happy in our surgery decision that we want to spread the word? I get so sad when I see people say, "I never even heard about the DS before my surgery." That's exactly what we are trying to avoid. If you discovered something amazing that has changed your life for the better, wouldn't you want to shout it from the rooftops?
If you don't like these types of posts, just ignore them. Don't let it bother you, life is just too short.
Good luck!
Jules
No body attacked you, they just answered your question.
We are FREE from the guilt that we have felt for years as we struggled to lose weight numerous times. Why is it so hard for everyone to understand that we are SO happy in our surgery decision that we want to spread the word? I get so sad when I see people say, "I never even heard about the DS before my surgery." That's exactly what we are trying to avoid. If you discovered something amazing that has changed your life for the better, wouldn't you want to shout it from the rooftops?
If you don't like these types of posts, just ignore them. Don't let it bother you, life is just too short.
Good luck!
Jules
On August 2, 2009 at 5:19 PM Pacific Time, Rockne wrote:
I’m just like so many of you. Really. Just over 6 years post-op from WLS. A duodenal switch (DS) which has truly been a gift from the gods. Like so many of you, I researched my options and really didn’t like very much of what I was seeing starting some 15 years ago in the options available then. The DS was still in it’s infancy, and I wanted more back then from the published studies even though the DS had been performed some 5 or 6 years prior with preliminary promising results.
Ok, so I am gifted with a Naval medical background that allowed me to sift through some of the wheat from the chaff of the the medical literature both then, and perhaps even more now with my increased interest and research to date in the subject matter. Was very encouraged with the lap band not that many years ago long before it was approved in this country. The hard data quickly sent me running away from that solution and were I looking now at the sleeve alone, still in it’s infancy, I would still run for the hills, given what we are seeing the further out studies have been done. Too early to say yet definitively, but this early out it would appear not much better than the lap band as a purely restrictive procedure.
My background and research hardly makes me even remotely an expert, but it seems to me even the most average intellects prosecuting a basic inquiry into morbid obesity and the surgical intervention solution sets available that the same conclusions that even this simpleton came to would be more readily shared. Sadly, from the posts here and all over the various boards over the years, I’m NOT seeing the enlightenment that should by now be forthcoming. 15 years ago we were not all on the net, but now that most of us are, I’m left wondering even more now, “Why?" My bias is clearly more with science. Anecdotal evidence can be helpful, but it has limited utility. So much of OH’s posts are anecdotal and that’s perfectly fine and expected in this forum, certainly in the the short-term. But with all the vast informational data available, I have to get back to my basic question? Why do you do this to yourselves? By that I mean have you learned anything from being morbidly obese and the challenges this, your likely lifelong dilemm presents ?
Seemed painfully obvious to me from the beginning, but why not you folks?
- DIETS don’t work for 95% (+) of us. And but for the simple rules the DS requires, one can check DIETING with the DS forever at the door! Crickey, people, have we not learned that diets don’t work?? Do NOT think for a moment I was not every bit as DESPERATE as all of you to get the damn weight off. I was SMO at just over 400 lbs. I was not about to risk my life to just have to do what? - More dieting AFTER WLS with the very real risk of significant regain coupled with even MORE RESTRICTIVE diet protocol than pre-op to be, well, hopefully successful? Damn it, people, most of us have managed to get significant amounts of weight off dieting, but haven’t we all learned KEEPING it OFF is really what’s KEY?
2. Most of us who find ourselves morbidly obese are metabolically challenged. Translation- It’s not your fault. The DS is really the only WLS intervention that addresses this well. So well, that the majority of us can live and and eat normally without appreciable regain out long-term. Put simply, we DS Post-Ops have the VERY BEST Stats overall for maximum excess weight loss and KEEPING it off out long-term. Good Science doesn’t lie.
3. I already hear the detractors.... "But no, you’re wrong. IT IS MY FAULT! I made the wrong choices in my eating habits. Therefore, I deserve to be punished for my gluttonous sins and that is singularly the reason I find myself morbidly, or super morbidly obese! So, I will get my TOOL- lose weight and then no matter what might history was, I will be successful because, well, I’m motivated and ready to make the change. Why, because all I need is a tool and damn it, I have dieted successfully in the past."
Well, damn it, some of you are successful with the other WLS types out long-term. But I have yet to meet a single one out of hundreds who managed to do so without a complete, and total change in lifestyle. Read HARD WORK with following highly restrictive rules with more DIETING and EXERCISE. Again, possible, but for you pre-ops how has DIETING and EXERCISE worked out for you in the past LONG-TERM?
Look, people, fat or thin we could all stand to make better choices in food consumption. But, should that translate in a LIFETIME of PUNISHMENT though risking your life for WLS to do what? A regiment of more Self-Punishment at just MORE DIETING for the rest of your life? Not only more dieting, but more restrictive dieting than you have likely ever done in the past Oh, but now you have a F**ning tool... PLEASE! Just look at the posts here and elsewhere on the boards. Revision and failed WLS boards are one thing, but one only needs to look here on the main OH board to see the perioperative misery and that which can be seen out longer term. Sorry, I’m empathetic even sympathetic to those you suffering, but I just see MORE and MORE of the same self-PUNISHMENT, meaning it’s ALL my fault attitude! "
HELP! I had my surgery and I’m miserable! Puking, dumping, not dumping- can I eat a piece of damn fruit without fear of dumping? Why can’t I drink with meals and take NSAIDS for my excessive weight induced joint pain? God help me because I don't dump! I can't depend on medieval dumping negative reinforcement to control cravings?" Point out the fact the DS doesn’t have such nonsense to deal with, and we’re castigated as almost evil in how simple life can beand eating normally.
What the hell is so bad wanting to live a normal life eating like a normally thin person does? Meaning those people pretty much eat what they like. I eat normally and drink with my meals with a few simple rules of protein and supplements first, and the rest can be gravy, often literally? Never mind, I WAS EVERY BIT AS DESPERATE AS ALL OF YOU to get my weight off ! But I hear the same thing over and over again. Can’t be bothered appealing my rights for the WLS surgery that is best for me. I’ll worry about the dieting for life thing later after I get my TOOL and any appreciable regain, I might face later is a matter for another day.
4. Admittedly, you folks at least willing to question whatever might be OFFERED UP to you have it tough. I hear ya.... “My consulting PCP and/or Surgeon really knows what’s best for me, and this is what my insurance says they will only approve. Why would I question their expertise?"
Here’s a clue people. Surgery is largely a technical skill, at least at a fundamental basic level. Good surgeons need lots of other important satellite medical skills, but I'm already far too long here as it is. Frankly speaking, most Bariatric surgery procedures are dead simple to learn. The Duodenal Switch, is MUCH more technically difficult to accomplish and master well. Takes longer to perform under the knife, and sadly, insurance $ remuneration of said procedure is LESS for both the practitioner and hospital, ect. Read- little incentive to learn and fight convention that otherwise gets one and the participating hospital and other providers paid. Indeed, It’s been my experience that far too many, if not most prospective Bariatric surgeons having developed a taste for surgery demonstrating, shall we say marginal promise in a general surgery rotation looking for a lucrative practice often gravitate to Bariatrics. And why not? Marginally gifted surgeons would be fools to pass up on this increasing burgeoning profitable opportunity. Bariatrics is now big business and don’t EVER believe that a practitioner NOT offering a WLS procedure like the DS will ever HONESTLY portray said procedure in anything but a negative light. Yes, there are exceptions with a very few ethical practitioners, but this is exceedingly RARE. I could live with a surgeon not wanting to promote a procedure he or she doesn’t perform, but I will never accept a physician lying to patients, or equally as bad, not staying current with the well known data/collective works within their practice and making that known to their patients making serious inquiries.
Indeed, it was long ago, I sat in seminar in the LA area and suffered from a well known technically gifted RNY and Lap band surgeon LYING about the DS to well over a hundred people. When I stood up, holding a sheaf of current studies refuting his lies- all well published and KNOWN among any but the most blind incompitnet Bariatric practitioner, he stumbled was basically left speechless only to pitifully offer and in anger that he had never seen such studies. “Next question please?"
5. So back to my question, if I may? So why do you many bright inquiring folks seeking WLS or previous failed WLS interventions ignore the data, stats and well researched studies to date? Why do you continue in the self-punishment mode that it’s all my fault, and if my WLS choice fails me, it’s still my fault because?? Well, I expected after getting my TOOL, I would be successful, BUT I found I couldn’t live with all the restrictive rules and MORE DIETING for LIFE."
Hello! Why do you morbidly and super-morbidly obese just like I was- knowing via research that there exist a medically sound alternative EXCEEDING the publishable success standard for WLS which equates to losing merely only 50 % of your EXCESS weight. That’s right, you’re considered a WLS success if you only lose HALF of your excess weight which will leave many of you STILL morbidly obese? Bad enough a quack surgeon would perform a lap band on 4-or 500 lb SMO patient, but why would you as the recipient risk your life for WLS with such abysmal stats?
I’m a mere STAT, too. Successful, yes, at 6 years out, like LOTS of you even with other WLS types. The difference? I don’t have work at, or even think about the word DIETING. I can now safely avoid the term, “DIETING" in my vocabulary. I eat and live like a normally thin person. I enjoy foods as they were meant to be. I absorb only 20 % of the fats consumed and I’m the envy of my PCP nearly 20 years younger when he reviews my labs. Long now having reached my nadir of weight loss, give or take 5 or 10 pounds, I eat what I want when I want. My Bacon, 4 fried eggs, toast liberally applied with butter was a healthy breakfast for me this morning. Last night I had two large pieces of rich cheesecake for desert. Somewhat unusual for me, but hardly out of the norm. That same large cheesecake has been in the fridge for 3 weeks. Before my DS, it would have been gone the same day or by the next. But again, it’s about a NORMAL lifestyle, manageable cravings easily satiated now post WLS. Not possible for me without my duodenal switch and most certainly NOT possible with any other WLS type without worry of significant regain out long-term.
So why do I see so many of you pre-ops and those needing revisions refuse to give yourself a break? Have you not been PUNISHED ENOUGH? Isn’t it about time you get off the self-HATING FOREVER DIETING TRAIN? Why not give the DS at least serious consideration before falling in with the lemmings that opt for an RNY, Lap band, etc.... Most of you have choice, at least for now, even if you have to appeal and travel to get your rightful surgical intervention. That may change if this nation moves to the so called government- single payer option.
No, the DS is NOT for everyone, especially those that can’t follow the FEW dead simple rules of adequate protein first, religious adherence to necessary supplements and regular lab work needed, but I continue to be AMAZED that otherwise seemingly good WLS candidates opt out because these folks can’t be bothered taking a few supplement pills a day. Sheesh! Never mind it’s equally important the RNY and other post-ops do the same. More often than not, as so many of you might seem inclined to believe, a liberal more normal eating lifestyle post WLS lifestyle just isn’t possible from your mindset. Understandable, from so much MISINFORMATION out there, but HOGWASH! You have a CHOICE. Exercise it from a FULLY informed position! This is the rest of your life we’re talking about.
Questions, hate mail ;-) ? Fine. PM me at your leisure, or better yet, come over to the DS forum where the really informed reside.
http://www.obesityhelp.com/forums/DS/a,messageboard/board_id ,5357/
Think twice, cut once,
Rockne
What makes you think that everyone wants to continue eating the way we did before surgery? I ate like a pig before surgery, I didn't want to continue down that path.
>>Look, people, fat or thin we could all stand to make better choices in food consumption. But, should that translate in a LIFETIME of PUNISHMENT though risking your life for WLS to do what?<<
Maybe this is what separates DSers from the normals. Okay, there. I wrote it. I get so sick of this mentality that we have a disease and we are to just treat the symptoms and ignore the disease. Food is neither a reward nor punishment. SOME of us can do quite well with the lifestyle change.
I did not read your entire post, sorry... It was just too long. But you guys need to understand that not all of us want to eat enough food for 4 people. DS works for you and I promise you, I am thrilled that it works for you. But my diet is mostly vegetarian because that is what I like and that is what I crave. I couldn't eat your diet. If I wanted to live on Atkins I wouldn't have needed surgery. I don't want malabsorption, I'm too irresponsible to take the supplements and I'd never get labs done.
Your surgery type is what works for you, allow us to make our own choices. I don't need you thinking for me, I do it quite well on my own. You know, we atheists have a saying for the hard core bible thumpers that try to shove their bibles down our throats. "You pray for me and I'll think for you." Translated here, you do what works for you and I will continue to think for myself.
I find your post not informative but instead arrogant and condescending. You are six years post op and you STILL see food as a reward and punishment. Just how far have you really come?
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