Why I believe in moderation...

 I always say this every time this subject comes up:

Moderation is fine as long as it is NOT an excuse.

Like Vy in her first reply it really depends alot on your definition.  I see a lot of newbies lately glomming on to "moderation" as a defense for why they are eating crap, as Happy calls it.  They are using that as a technique for dealing with food issues in lieu of doing the hard work on changing their relationship with food.  I really can't embrace that, or reccomend that, as a path to long term success.  

This is what scares me every time this topic pops up - that particularly vulnerable people in the early stages will take the idea and run with it as an excuse to make bad choices.

There are a lot of vets, like Donna, who embrace moderation and have been successful with it.  In past threads on this topic, Donna even agreed that she would not encourage someone to practice moderation without adressing the causes of why they were eating or to satisfy an emotional craving.  I think every vet would agree that you don't achieve long term success without doing that work.

I am certain that people would put me in what you call the "Limited" camp, but by your definition I think I actually fall into your "moderate" camp with a caveat:  That its OK to be less strict and follow a certain caloric guideline ONLY after you have gotten your food issues managed.  Until then, you should be very strict and make the most out of the honeymoon period. It will be harder if you don't.

EDIT:

I wanted to add, thet for myself - I don't think I am there yet.  Lately, I have freed up a lot of extra calories for food by elimination of calories from my vitamins (Those dang calcium chewy bites took 70).  I found my mental processes going towards I can have this or I can have that.  I started making excuses to eat things either when I knew I was not hungry, or that were not the best choices.  As I start transitioning to maintenence here in the 20 or so lbs I have to work more on my compulsion issues so I will stay strict for now.

About your edit: This is why I have such mixed feelings about calorie guidelines. I definitely know I had to give them up in "maintenance" the last time because I actually found myself eating *more*. Like, hey! I get 1600 calories a day, it's 9:00 p.m. and I have 200 left. Woo hoo!

I thought I could also bring some people in by the title. Moderation is great when it works. It can be a life's work to figure that out, though. I think most obese or formerly obese people would do much better by giving up the sugar, period. I'm actually a big advocate for that, and think trying to control what we have seen over and over again controls *us* is insanity.

I mean, hey, I live by the disease model of compulsive overeating. Nothing very "moderate" about that. I chose not to eat what I can't moderate.

 I try not to focus too much on the calorie guidelines - just DONT break 600.  I usually just try to get as much protein as I can without stuffing myself and with as few calories as I can.  I have never really been part of the "OOOH I have 200 haclories left - unless we were planning to go eat.  Its usually just an interesting bit of trivia.

Lately, I have been wanting popcorn or nuts.  Thats where I find myslef tempting myself with that knoweldge of how many calories I have left.  Knowing that in maintenance I will be upping my calories this behavior is what prompted me to start private counseling. Its not really about the popcorn or the nuts, I can give or take those; its about trying to figure out what I am using them for, what situations are triggering me.  I want to reinforce the tools I have developed in group and on here as well as get a firmer hold on what my emoional triggers are.

I think weight loss is really less about diets and exercise, and more about healing as people.  I know thats true in my case.  As I have gotten to love myself more the diet and exercise becomes natural - not a chore or something I have to do.  I have actually found oddly enbough, that NOT getting my exercise is becoming a trigger.  I feel deprived and that drives me to the pantry.

Sugar was never much of an issue for me.  Texture was mine.  If it was a blend of creamy and cruchy I was in heaven.  Starches were also a huge thing for me.  My ultimate comfort food was a HUGE bowl of Fettucini Carbonara with a cotaletta alla milanese.  Breaded Veal, Creamy Texture, Crunchy Pancetta - it was my crack.

Thanks for bringing this topic up again Happy.  I know people have differing opinions on this subject, and, therefore, the responses are sometimes quite passionate.  Reminds me of earlier days in OA where there was lots of back and froth about there being one way only, and those that didn't adhere to that plan were not abstinent.  I like that you tried to clarify the issue more.  We are all different, and our triggers are all different.  I guess I'd interpretted 'moderation' as being able to eat anything in small, normal (whatever that is) amounts.  I can't do that, at least not now.  However, there are some foods that I have been able to eat in moderation, as they aren't triggers for me, though they may be for others.  For example, having a tablespoon or 2 of potato or rice, or a piece of whole grain toast with my eggs keeps me w/in my daily carb limits w/out setting up craving for more, for me.  I can't have just a bite of sugary foods, because even though the number of carbs would still be okay, those foods would be calling my name.  I guess I would then be in the 'limited' group not clear, and I'm a little confused, but what else is new?!  Bottom line is one size does not fit all.  I do agree with others who have written, that using 'moderation' as a reason to eat crap for the sake of eating crap is a dangerous practice.

 Philosophically, I don't see "losing phase" as that different from "maintenance phase."  In fact, I think that for me, maintainence will look at lot like right now.

That's pretty much how I entered this whole deal. I never ruled out any foods, some I just delayed eating again for some time.. and some I just have not had yet.. to this day. I too have moved away from grains for health reasons, but that slowly happened in the year or so leading up to WLS.

I mostly fell within the "limited" camp during loss, but during social events I *would* have a bite or two of something that was particularly worthy, with no issue. If nothing was worthy, I wouldn't bother with what was there (store-bought cakes and such have no interest to me.) I planned for this, and had no problems with any head-chatter aftermath. I also indulged in adult beverages after several months, again- at social events.

I went into this with the thought that whatever changes I made during the process HAD to be changes I could sustain life-long. I knew I could not sustain a purely ascetic lifestyle, and knew from prior massive losses, that it didn't work well long-term.. for a year or two, sure.. but after that- no, so I didn't enter this process with that mindset. I wanted to allow for the realities of food/socializing/enjoyment. I knew for *me* one evening/one meal of off plan eating would not derail me, now if I had an issue where getting off track for one meal would lead to days of off track eating (the all or nothing trap I used to fall into easily) I wouldn't have been able to do this. This also was walked into with the mindset that I was not on a planned "binge".. there was no need for binging when nothing was strictly forbidden, as happened in past dieting attempts (again, getting away from the diet mentality was vital.) So with that realization, I could walk into a party, and make good decisions to have a treat or two, without going overboard.

With that said, there are most definitely things I still don't have in the house.. however, these are the same things that were relegated to occasional treats, away from home, 1-2x a year, on trips.. Cheese puffs!

 I have to say I agree with the whole "don't say can't, say choose" philosophy.  I don't say I can never have a baked potato again, or never have fettucini again.  I choose not to until I reach goal and then I can reintroduce them sensibly and appropriately.

I choose to not have those foods right now so that I can maximize my weight loss and work on getting healthy.

Also, a huge benefit for me of not going back to them right after surgery is that I have discovered a whole range of new foods that I love!  Things I never would have tried had I not chosen to take a break from my old favorites.  

Yep, I never said so long forever to my beloved salted bagels & cream cheese, just so long for now..

Funny thing is, I still have not had any.. Someday, I may- but the drive is gone. It helps that I'm just plain picky, and there's only one place in my city that makes real bagels, and you have to get there in the early am, and it's a 30min drive.. I'm so not a morning person. 

Even though I don't eat certain foods, it is certainly my choice as well.  Having a choice implies that I made a decision, not the other way around, which does raise my hackles and make that forbidden thing even more enticing.  I choose not eat certain foods, as I know what effect they have on me, but no one else told me I could or couldn't.

Oh yeah, I remember in the first few months my mom would be like "she CAN'T have that!" and I would say "yes I CAN!!!! But I don't want it. I CAN eat whatever I want." and I felt a real sense of control every time I ate. Even when big plates of amazing food were in front of me I wouldn't even want them because I felt like "ehh I COULD have that, but I'm choosing not to." Now my choices are more 'lax but I'm tightening up a bit again.

Great post Happy and what a great discussion going on here. I feel I am still learning and you all give me a lot to think about so I just want to say THANK YOU.