To the newer folks...

Well stated, thanks Happy!!

 

 So true, and what I do know, is this sleeve isn't a magic wand.  My doctor is caring and knowledgeable, but he also says I will never be hungry again.    Wrong.  I have been hungry quite a bot since I started on solid food.  So, I listen to the vets, they have been there, and can sometimes give me better advice.  

Thank you for putting my thoughts into words.....there is not one single syllable that I do not agree with--it is all about ATTITUDE--how we receive the criticism or lesson.

However, (ok everybody now...dont go rolling your eyes--please......) All I want to say is that DELIVERY is just as huge...and I am NOT talking about eliminating tough love or advice here....or that the lesson needs to be delivered in a sugar coated, lovey dovey kinda way...believe me...if you knew me even a fraction, you would know that I am all about accountability and handing out harsh criticism when necessary.  No one has EVER EVER accused me of sugar coating anything!     I am also probably one of the most sarcastic individuals that you would ever want to meet and I LOVE LOVE LOVE, and sooo appreciate other people's sarcasm as well. Makes me laugh (most times...) even when it is at my expense....
 
What I am strictly and soley speaking about is when it is delivered dripping with JUDGEMENT. Or worse yet...it is said in an unnecessarily negative tone......because the poster knows it is the more popular view and therefore they will have the whole gang behind them. Which is a lot different than constructive criticism, tough love or even sarcasm.

Finally, I would like to add that thankfully I, personally,  have not seen a lot of that or rather coming from a lot of different individuals. I have also seen those certain people that have responded that way, come back and offer a totally compassionate, intelligent and thoughtful response to another topic. So we must understand that we are ALL human.....those of us that make bad choices, those of us that grumble about it, and those of us that criticise it....sometimes we humans are just having one of those days. As long as we continue to grow from it.....because there is much to learn here....so many people to support, assist and celebrate with. Personally, I don't know how I would be getting through all of this without each of you, vets and other newbies alike!!---and I haven't even really begun to fight! (the weight battle that is..still pre-op.)

So let's not be too judgemental...or too sensitive either. We really are all in this together....one big dysfunctional yet lovable OH family..... 
 

Great message Happy - I really hope that people take your advice and listen to content rather than focus on whether the message was delivered specifically catered to their conversational style.  The call to set aside defensiveness is well-stated!

Exactly!  Absorb the ENTIRE content....well put ruggie.

Actually Marabell, I believe we are in disagreement.  Your post above points to delivery method being quite important, with care being taken to emphasize a non-negative tone as well as a non-judgmental tone.  I am inferring that the content of support is at times more important that the recipient feeling a non-negative tone. 

I have suggested in the past that there is a fine line between commiseration and guidance, and some people lump those two together under the heading of "support".  These are distinct things.  I don't want to speak in place of Happy, but I believe she is calling us to take advice beyond our level of being defensive... it can be that if we are busy saying "your tone in unnecessarily negative" we are missing the content of the message in the first place.  Also, a group of humans will never agree upon exactly what is "unnecessarily". 

A think when I was a newbie, it was easy to view people as being judgmental - now as I've grown with them, I've come to understand that they are truly concerned and cutting to the chase.  They have seen victories and failures.  There's failures where the surgery didn't end up fitting the person well - maybe they had some real trouble healing.  And there's also failures where people continued to hurt themselves after surgery by the way they kept eating.  After watching that kind of mild insanity, some of the more experienced people are going to give strong, bold approaches in their delivery - and I'm lucky to have been on the receiving end of that.  In fact, I was just on the receiving end of one such conversation in another sub-forum here - and am better for it despite feeling "done" in many other ways, and even though it was a tough message for me to swallow.

What's worse is that because some of these experienced people get such pushback that they simply quit replying.  They have lots of experience and guidance and could help people reach their goals faster and with less pain, but get tired of caring about other people while being accused of being "unsupportive".  Vets speak often (in other forums) about how they simply stop reading and reply to this main VSG forum because people aren't ready to receive support.  One person's "negative tone" is another person's candid warning trying to tell the tale of the albatross.  I find it sad that people with experience, with solutions, feel discouraged from helping others because they are accused of not being "supportive".  It's just as hurtful, but in reverse.

Sure, we all try for constructive criticism.  Of course.  But knowing that people will never agree on everything as a whole, which side do you err on?  There is no right answer.   You could copy and paste an answer to ten different people - two won't read it, three will feel attacked, three will feel supported, one won't understand it, and another will read between the lines and believe it justifies what they want regardless of what the actual message says.  I'm not sure we can do anything to change that, except to agree to disagree.  Oh, and make valid use of the "Block" buttons.

Truth be told Ruggie, you and I agree a lot more than you may wish to realize.

Your post stated that content "is at times" more important than the tone. I actually believe content is ALWAYS more important than tone. I just also happen to believe that tone matters as well.

I too, have suggested in the past that there is a fine line between constructive criticism and denunciation, and some people lump those two under the heading of "candid". As you have just recently learned or been reminded of, being addressed boldly can help to deliver a strong message. However if the conveyor is focused on condemnation, then the lesson or guidance is lost--and so is the opportunity for growth.

Here....so that we don't nitpick at one another's choice in words......perhaps stating it this way will help.....Elina--I find every one of her posts to be candid, bold, intelligent, insightful...she calls it as she sees it...and yet she has the ability and grace to remain absolutely considerate.

Sometimes there are disagreements and I hope that we, as adults, can move past those and not dislike or misjudge a person based soley on a parting if the minds on a particuliar topic. Of course providing there isnt any overt rudeness or uncalled for name calling etc. I would hope that a simple exchange of opposing views would not warrant the use of the block button...as that would be both a pity and infantile. Not to mention a loss for both individuals. Again extenuating cir****tances aside.

I dont want to speak for anyone else but I think that I can safely say that the majority of us newbies are extremely appreciative
and grateful for the opportunity to absorb some of the sapience that the vets possess on this forum. I would also like to believe that we offer something in return.

On another note...should you and I not have the opportunity to "speak" again, I wish you much success and good health with your upcoming surgery.

Well Marabell, I think time will just have to tell.  I'm not trying to make it seem like I take some issue with you, it's just my perception that you seem (again, to me) to agree with both sides of an issue - you aren't by chance running for President, are you?  

I admit, I am not good with jokes.  Bah.

But seriously, I'm left wondering what you truly support - but it's not a big deal.  Brief, written communication in an internet forum is tough, and let's be honest, everyone's emotions around here are high, and with good reason.  Nor is it important for me to make a determination now - I just find I can't decide whether you support or disprove of some of my philosophies.  In this thread, my take is that you support both sides of this presupposition.  But again - it goesn't really matter what I think - I'm just a guy setting behind a computer like a million others ;)

But it's nothing to stop communicating with you over.  In fact, I'm curious to observe your path and progression - clearly, you have a lot of potential.  I will also agree with you concerning Elina's eloquent grace, but alas, I fear that's a talent that I won't quite achieve no matter how much I strive for it.  I can be candid, and we can generally talk about whether it comes off as criticism or denunciation.  But that's who I am - and it's also the help I responded to.  Sometimes people say "I'm not so sure that's the most effective path for you if you consider some other nice things blah blah."  But when Frisco says "Hey, you're being really stupid to your sleeve" I just open my eyes and go "Oh.... yeah, I am".

I fear the criticism / support fight will be neverending simply due to personality differences.  What do you think?

Oh I do believe we'll have plenty of opportunities to continue "speaking" and sincerely appreaciate your well-wishes on my upcoming plastic surgery.  Looks like you'll be freshly sleeved just a couple days after my surgery - you must be excited.

Actually, I thought the joke was not half bad Ruggie. You are right..it is very difficult to truly express oneself with this medium.

I can be a very righteous individual when I feel very strongly about something--I never sit on two sides of the fence-ever. I am, however, cursed with always being able to identify with both parties--what can I say? it is my cross to bear LOL

Personally, how do I prefer to receive my criticism or advice? To be honest...I'm with you on that. Assuming that the critique is coming from a trusted and sincere source, and the intent is genuine and well meaning, I respond better to direct feedback with no mincing of words.

Where do I stand on the issue of (and I choose this as an example only because it is the most recent) eating a McD sandwich? I didn't eat that crap during active addiction! The idea of having to turn to the drastic measure of having 85% of my stomach removed and then choosing that as my breakfast is well...asinine. I did not even respond to her post as she was very absolute in her justifications for making that choice and was not seeking counsel. Nor was she looking to, at the very least, expel her regret. Furthermore, she was inundated with relplies...I certainly had nothing constructive I could add.

I am glad that you and I are able to come to a certain level of respect and perhaps even appreciation for one another's differences. Maybe now we will be able to nurture our similarities.