What's on your Monday Menu RNY'ers?

they actually weren't originally part of the Reformation - they broke off a few years later from the Catholic Church later because the pope refused to annul King Henry VIII's marriage (or one of them, anyway - he had several!) so that he could get re-married. So Henry VIII said "screw you" and started his own church. That said, they did adopt some of the Reformation doctrines, but they're probably closer to the Catholic Church than any other denomination (at least, this whole Henry VIII story is the one I've always heard - I should probably research this before spouting off!!).

Yes, I knew that the Anglican church was founded by Henry VIII because he was irritated that Rome was dragging it's heels about granting him an annulment of his marriage to Catherine. He wanted this in order to marry Anne Boleyn. That, coupled with his awareness that treasure was being funneled to Rome, eventually decided him. So he became the head of the Church of England, as every English monarch afterwards has also been; the smaller Catholic monestaries were forced to close, their funds added to the crown; eventually this led to the dis-empowering of all Catholic bishops in the country; they were no longer accorded special privileges beyond that shown to C of E bishops and, I am sure, considerably less in reality. I always considered the C of E to be Protestant rather than Catholic, but reading further on this shows that it has in fact remained a hybrid. Interesting! I like that! I wasn't sure of the timing involved and should also have researched such a basic thing before posting. I'm still a bit unclear about the timeline involving Luther, Calvin, et al, along with Henry VIII. History is interesting.

I took a course once on the Protestant Reformation, but it's been years. You're more up on some of this than I am. Luther was the first big break. Lutheran doctrine is completely different from the Catholic one (at it's essence, people are saved because of grace (Lutheran) rather than good works (Catholic)), but because they were the earliest major break, many of the rituals, etc, look pretty similar, since that's people were familiar with at that time. Calvin was later - and evangelical. Calvin came up with the pre-destination idea, too. It's the basis of the Presbyterian Church as well as some others (although it seems odd since I don't really view Presbyterians as evangelicals - they seem to pretty much sit there quietly and mind their own business - but I suppose they (or their church, anyway) believes in pre-destination...which comes from Calvin). I really do need to read up on all this again. I used to know all this stuff, but it's been probably 30 years since I took that class. I just remember being fascinated by all this. I read one of Martin Luther's books and thought he was a stitch! (of course, it was translated from German - it could have been juiced a bit by the translator...)

My ex-husband and his wonderful parents (may they rest in peace) were Lutherans.

I find religion quite fascinating - what people believe, what (if anything) they believe to be their divine mandate, etc. I remember once, long ago, having a brief discussion with two men who were attending the same university as my ex, though my ex was getting his masters in physics, while they were in the business school. I'm not sure how we started to discuss religion, but we did. What one of them expressed about his beliefs really struck me as being almost unbearably grim, to the point that the conversation stuck with me ever since.

He said that he believed that all human beings were impossibly, fatally flawed, rotten to the core; that we were all evil, and hopelessly corrupt, with no chance whatsoever of any betterment of salvation, no matter what we did or how we lived our lives. He believed that the only remote chance some few of us might realize would be if we had been chosen by God to receive His saving grace - but that this was utterly beyond our ability to earn or acquire through our own efforts. Aside from these few, fortunate saved people, the overwhelming rest of humanity, he said, were already doomed to eternal damnation. I understood this sorrowful, grim philosophy to be related to Calvinism, but I am not sufficiently well read to know if that was in fact accurate. I remember that both the second guy and I listened to this sorrowful story of damned humanity with stunned disbelief. The other guy asked him, "Do you really believe that?" And the man just hung his head, nodding glumly. I need to study much more, as I honestly find these things very interesting (yet very strange!).

I grew up in an extremely - even excruciatingly - preppy area, bristling with a variety of Protestant churches. My family was Roman Catholic, but we were definitely in the minority in that town (though not in the state!). I never thought of any of those churches as being Evangelical - the Presbyterians I knew were all pretty staid, buttoned-down, well-heeled and well-pressed types, unlikely to experience overwhelming religious sentiment, and equally unlikely to speak in tongues.

that notion that people are chosen by God and can't do anything about it is that pre-destination thing I mentioned (Calvin), but I don't think most Calvinists are anywhere near that glum. I don't think most think that the majority of humanity is doomed - they're probably more optimistic than that about their chances. Wow - that guy most have been really depressed with all that on his shoulders. Yikes!

I can't imagine believing that your only chance to escape almost certain never-ending roasting in the pits of hell was at best a very long shot, and completely out of your hands. That guy had been laughing and joking around prior to that conversation; at the end of it he was morose. What a belief system!

One of the funny factoids that always stuck in my head was Henry VIII went from being the Defender of the Faith (Catholic) during the Reformation and they've kept it as on of the titles even through QE2 although the faith itself changed. The Pope that excommunicated him revoked that award but then the English just reawarded it to Henry. Funny stuff.

That is amusing!

reading up on it now. He did basically say "screw you" and set up his own church (making himself the head of it), but then Pope Clement excommunicated him. Evidently this whole dispute lasted for a couple of years. The article said it's a blend of two (Protestant and Catholic), and the Church of England, at any rate, never really defined itself as either one.

Well, that settles it: Episcopalians are cool!