open or laproscopic?

soulsister
on 7/2/08 1:06 pm - NY
I am in Buffalo and thinking of having surgery done by Dr. Viglianco who is with Caruana but does laprocopic while Caruana does open. Why pick open if lap is quicker healing time? Is one better than the other?
dawnmc3
on 7/2/08 8:55 pm - West Falls, NY
I just had the lap by Dr. Viglianco, I am 6 days out and I'm feeling wonderful.  I am going back to work on Monday.  I don't know if one is better than the other.  Doing it laproscopically does take longer for the actual surgery.  Open takes about one hour where lap. is about 2 and a half hours, so if the length of time you are under is a health factor that might be a consideration.   Either way, they are both great Dr.'s, you'll be very happy. Dawn
rosemary52
on 7/2/08 8:59 pm - NY
I had the open with Dr. Caruana because his partner(for the lap) at the time did not have the experience under his belt.  My recovery was longer...if the lap is a good option for you...go for it...I had lap for my gall bladder and I was up and around in about 5 days.  Keep us updated. Rosemary
Ken_P
on 7/2/08 9:00 pm
well the healing is much more rapid, less pain plus no huge scar also with not being cut wide open less chance of infection as well you really dont want open unless its an absolute necessitiy

The longest of Journeys start with a single step 
(90 lost pre-surgery)

dmshaw1979
on 7/3/08 4:47 am
I had open with Dr . Caruana only because it was a shorter procedure. I was scared to death of being under anesthesia for 3 or more hours for laparscopic. I did get to meet Dr. Viglianco for my post op follow up yesterday and he seemed to be extremely nice.  But I still love Dr. Caruana more! Do you have a appt yet?
sallbu
on 7/3/08 7:04 am - Cattaraugus, NY
For me it was just more of a personal decision to have open with Dr. C.   I had worked in a surgery dept of a different hospital for 2 years and I wanted them to be able to see everything and feel everything they were doing.  I know for most it doesn't make sense, but it was just my decision and I have abolsutely no regrets.  My daughter and I both had the open procedure and I wouldn't change that for anything.  I have a desk job and was back to work in 10 days.   What ever decision you make, good luck.  They are a great group of surgeons.  Sally
Jessica P.
on 7/3/08 11:31 am - greene, NY
I too had mine done open purposely becuase I wanted them to know what was going on inside of me while they were in there. It may have been a control thing for me. Just knowing what my pain levels were going to be, recovery time and the works. I just wanted that known in advance compared to starting with Lapros... and ending up open becuase of the many potential risks that would turn it to open. I chose the Dr I have based on his rep for ability in doing the open procedure.But that was just a personal choice for me.  But I have also had so many people tell me how good my incision looks for being just 2 weeks out. How clean it is and how nice it will heal. I am off full 6 weeks due to having a very heavy lifting job.. I work as an Aide on a cardiac step down unit. Either way you will initially be a bit tired out  
"Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."
oh_c_cardrs-1.gif image by jessi7675
    
jamiecatlady5
on 7/4/08 12:43 am - UPSTATE, NY

Hello! Welcome! :-) Good questions!
You will receive various personal opinion undoubtably, what is best for YOU is individual and very personal and is based on YOUR research, comfort and choice. Making the best decision comes typically from being educated, informed and personal decision making/choices after some self reflection. REMEMBER THERE IS NO RIGHT WAY, NO WRONG WAY, NO BEST SURGERY ONLY THE RIGHT WAY FOR YOU AND YOUR SURGEON AND THE BEST SURGERY FOR YOU,  all the rexst is others opinions! ;-) I had lap based on my needs and my research. But if open was all I could have I would of done it that way vs not at all. Sometimes the typical is not your experience we have similar OR tines open or lap in skilled surgeons so length under andesthesia is not always a big thing these day. happy researching! :-)

RNY done OPEN or done LAP is same surgery. Difference being HOW they complete the surgery.

SOMETIMES we want lap and get open always have to consent to both incase of complication and if they can not proceed lap....alot OF CHOICE OPEN VS LAP IS THE SURGEON YOU FIND, LIKE ETC. tHEIR EXPERIENCE IS A MAIN POINT OF CONSIDERATION!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastric_bypass_operation

Surgical Risks for open and lap know that....Some complications are common to all abdominal operations, while some are specific to bariatric surgery.
Weight loss surgery is MAJOR ABDOMINAL SURGERY. There are many important and potentially lethal complications known to be associated with this operation, and surgery in general. Some of the dangers are the same that are present in any operation that includes sedation of the patient. These operative risks are therefore not unique to this surgery, however, it is still important to review these risks. Following is a short list (NOT ALL INCLUSIVE!)

Complications

Description
Allergic Reactions From minor reactions such as a rash to sudden overwhelming reactions that can cause death.
Anesthetic Complications Anesthesia used to put you to sleep for the operation can be associated with a variety of different complications up to and including death.
Bleeding Surgery involves incisions and cutting that can result in bleeding complications, from minor to massive, that can lead to the need for emergency surgery, transfusion, or death.
Blood Clots Also called deep vein thrombosis and Pulmonary Embolus that can sometimes cause death. It is imperative that you get up and walk around the evening of your surgery day to help prevent clots from forming in your legs.
Infection Including wound infections, bladder infections, pneumonia, skin infections and deep abdominal infections that can sometimes lead to death.
Leak After an operation to bypass the stomach, the new connections can leak stomach acid, bacteria and digestive enzymes causing a severe abscess and infection. This can require repeated surgery, and intensive care and even death.
Narrowing (stricture) Narrowing (stricture) or ulceration of the connection between the stomach and the small bowel can occur after the operation. This can require emergency operation, intensive care and can sometimes lead to death.
Indigestion, Reflux or Ulcers The operation can sometimes lead to severe nausea, vomiting, indigestion, abdominal pain, gastritis or ulcers. This can be severe and can last for days, weeks or possibly even longer. This is especially likely if you have had previous problems with nausea, abdominal pain or ulcers. Bile reflux is also a possibility, and may necessitate additional surgery.
Dumping Syndrome Dumping Syndrome (Symptoms of the dumping syndrome include cardiovascular problems with weakness, sweating, nausea, diarrhea and dizziness) can occur in some patients after gastric bypass. This can be so severe that the surgery may have to be reversed.
Bowel Obstruction Any operation in the abdomen can leave behind scar tissue that can put the patient at risk for later bowel blockage or obstruction. The bowel can twist, obstruct or even perforate leading to serious complications and even death.
Laparoscopic Surgery Risks Laparoscopic Surgery use*****tures to enter the abdomen and this can lead to abdominal injury, bleeding and even death.
Side Effects of Drugs All drugs have inherent risks and complications and in some cases can cause a wide variety of side effects, reactions and rarely cause death.
Loss of Bodily Function The performance of surgery and anesthesia can stress the body’s systems leading to a variety of complications including stroke, heart attack, limb loss and other problems related to operations and anesthesia.
Risks of Transfusion Including Hepatitis and Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome (AIDS), from the administration of blood and/or blood components. The illnesses are serious and can be fatal. Hernia Cuts and incision in the abdominal wall can lead to hernias after surgery. Hernias can lead to pain, bowel blockage, obstruction and even perforation and death in some cases. Treatment of hernias usually requires another operation.
Hair Loss Many patients develop hair loss for some period of time following an operation. It usually occurs 3-4 months following surgery, and resolves at 7-9 months. This usually responds to increased oral intake of protein and vitamins, but it may be permanent.
Vitamin and Mineral Deficiencies After gastric bypass, there is a malabsorption of many vitamins and minerals. Patients must take vitamin and mineral supplements forever to protect themselves from these problems. You also need to have yearly blood tests to measure the blood levels of these vitamins and minerals. Common deficiencies that can occur after gastric bypass include iron and calcium deficiency, B12 and Folate deficiencies.This is very important: Patients must take vitamin and mineral supplements forever. In some cases the deficiencies are so severe that they can lead to nerve and brain damage and the bypass must be reversed!
Excessive Weight Loss Some patients sustain excessive weight loss after the operation and may require reversal of the bypass to prevent severe malnutrition, nausea or vitamin and mineral deficiencies or death.
Complications of Pregnancy Vitamin and mineral deficiencies can put the newborn babies of gastric bypass mothers at risk. No pregnancy should occur for the first one to two years after the operation. Gastric Bypass has been shown to cause multiple types of vitamin and mineral deficiencies including: iron, B12, Folate, calcium and many others. Many of these deficiencies have been shown to cause birth defects or are suspected to cause birth defects. We also know that many patients who lose weight feel that they are well after surgery and forget to take their vitamins. Patients MUST be certain not to miss any of their vitamins if they decide to go ahead with pregnancy later. Unplanned Pregnancy Warning to women using oral contraceptives (birth control pills): More than 80 million women worldwide take “the pill” to prevent pregnancy. Studies have shown that oral contraceptives affect a woman’s hormones. This surgery also affects hormones, and interferes with the bodies ability to regulate hormonal levels. Thus oral contraceptives or other hormonal types of birth control (i.e. Depo Provera) are NOT RECOMMENDED as a reliable prevention of pregnancy following a gastric bypass. A barrier method is recommended, but be aware that your body changes rapidly during the initial weight loss period, and a diaphragm would not be especially reliable, either.
Other Major abdominal surgery, including the Laparoscopic Gastric Bypass, is associated with a large variety of other risks and complications, both recognized and unrecognized that occur both soon after and long after the operation. There is also a risk that you may not lose all of your excess weight before your body adapts to the bypass, and causes your weight loss to slow or even to stop prematurely.
Depression Depression and anxiety are common medical illnesses and have been found to be particularly common after gastric bypass surgery. You must have a mental health plan in place, and make your family or support system aware of the signs and symptoms of depression, so that they can get you the help you need.
Death This is a major and serious operation. It may lead to death from complications in some cir****tances, despite our best efforts on your behalf.

Open the surgeon makes an incision (may be as small as 4-5 inches of some as long as 18+!) this is individual based on what surgeon needs to operate on YOU...He then performs the operation with his hands and has full access visually open to your abdominal cavity.

OPEN TYPICAL (your mileage may vary) benefits:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
lower incidence of a leak

lower risk of internal hernia

SOmetimes shorter OR time although note: ***With experience, a skilled laparoscopic surgeon can perform most procedures as expeditiously as with an open incision!!!

many have stated personal comfort having surgeon see and use hands for operation decreasing risk with lap equipment (although in a very skilled Lap surgeon the debate is this is just as safe/effective even more is able to be visualized in this manner in a Morbidly obese person when they use the camera after inserting the gas intocavity..)

LAP TYPICAL (your mileage may vary) benefits:

The Laparoscopic Gastric Bypass, Roux-en-Y, first performed in 1993.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
lower wound infection rates

lower risk of abdominal adnesions
lower/almost non-existent hernia rate
typcially less pain than open
typically shorter hosptial stay than open
typically shorter recovery to return to life than open
4-6 small incisions 1/2 inch +/- than larger one with open

Benefit of limitation on handling and feeling tissues, decreasing trauma/swelling etc.

Mortality and complication rates

A recent large multi-center study[citation needed] reported that, in experienced hands, the overall complication rate of this type of surgery ranges from 7% for laparoscopic procedures to 14.5% for operations through open incisions, during the 30 days following surgery. Mortality for this study was 0% in 401 laparoscopic cases, and 0.6% in 955 open procedures. Similar mortality rates – 30-day mortality of 0.11%, and 90-day mortality of 0.3% – have been recorded in the U.S. Centers of Excellence program, the results from 33,117 operations at 106 centers.

 

 http://win.niddk.nih.gov/publications/gastric.htm#laparoscop

Open and Laparoscopic Bariatric Surgery

Bariatric surgery may be performed through “open” approaches, which make abdominal incisions in the traditional manner, or by laparoscopy. With the laparoscopic approach, sophisticated instruments are inserted through 1/2-in*****isions and guided by a small camera that sends images to a television monitor. Most bariatric surgery today is performed laparoscopically because it requires a smaller cut, creates less tissue damage, leads to earlier discharges from the hospital, and has fewer complications, especially postoperative hernias.

However, not all patients are suitable for laparoscopy. Patients who are extremely obese, who have had previous abdominal surgery, or have complicating medical problems may require the open approach.

http://www.asbs.org/html/patients/bypass.html

LAPAROSCOPIC GASTRIC BYPASS

Although the open RYGBP can be performed with a relatively low morbidity and mortality, the wound-related complications such as infection and incisional hernia can be troublesome. Wound infection occurs in as many as 8% of patients after open RYGBP and late incisional hernia occurs in as many as 20% of patients. However, some surgeons have reported a much lower rate. The laparoscopic approach to RYGBP was initiated in an effort to improve the early outcomes including a reduction in postoperative complications arising from a large incision in a severely obese patient.

I***** Drs. Wittgrove and Clark reported the first case series of laparoscopic RYGBP. The primary differences between laparoscopic and open RYGBP are the method of access and method of exposure. Laparoscopic RYGBP is normally performed through 5-6 small abdominal incisions (0.5-2.0 cm), the peritoneal cavity (abdomen) is insufflated with carbon dioxide gas which creates a space within which to work, allowing exposure of the operative field (Figure 1a). In contrast, open RYGBP is performed through a larger incision and abdominal wall retractors are used for exposure (Figure 1b). By reducing the size of the surgical incision and the trauma associated with the operative exposure, the surgical insult has been shown to be less after laparoscopic compared to open RYGBP. However, not all patients are candidates for a laparoscopic approach based on body habitus, previous intra-abdominal surgery, etc.

Clinical studies have demonstrated that laparoscopic RYGBP is a safe and effective alternative to open RYGBP for the treatment of morbid obesity. Higa and colleagues reported the largest laparoscopic RYGBP experience with 1,500 operations. There have been three prospective, randomized trials comparing the outcomes of laparoscopic vs open RYGBP. The largest trial was reported by Nguyen and colleagues in 2001. In 2004, a group from Murcia, Spain published their results. Long-term weight loss after laparoscopic and open RYGBP should not differ, as the primary differences between the two techniques is largely in the method of access and not the gastrointestinal reconstruction.

Despite the advantages of the laparoscopic approach, open bariatric surgery still plays a prominent role in management of morbidly obese patients. Relative contraindications for laparoscopic bariatric surgery include patients with extremely high body mass index, patients with multiple previous upper abdominal surgeries, and patients with prior bariatric surgery. Another limitation of the laparoscopic approach is the steep learning curve of this technically challenging procedure for the surgeon, so it is not an operation for the surgeon who has not been trained specifically in this technique. The advantages and disadvantages of laparoscopic RYGBP are listed below.

Advantages of laparoscopic compared to open RYGBP

Lesser intraoperative blood loss
Shorter hospitalization
Reduced postoperative pain
Less pulmonary complications (atelectasis)
Faster recovery
Better cosmesis
Fewer wound complications (incisional hernias and infections)

Disadvantages of laparoscopic compared to open RYGBP

Complex laparoscopic operation associated with a steep learning curve
Possible increase in the rate of internal hernia

http://www.laparoscopy.com/obesity/roux.html

Over the last 20 years the Roux-en-Y Gastric bypass has been successfully used as one of many surgical treatments to achieve significant long term weight loss (71% mean excess weigh loss). However, this procedure was not free of post operative complications. Wound infection, wound dehiscence, pulmonary embolism and cardiac problems made the recovery of these patients very long and difficult. By using a mini-invasive approach a big incision is spared, resulting in a faster recovery time with less pain and prompt ambulation . According to Dr.Schauer, his procedure is a modification of the technique described by Wittgrove et .al. i*****

 

Take Care,
Jamie Ellis RN MS NPP

100cm proximal Lap RNY 10/9/02 Dr. Singh Albany, NY
320(preop)/163(lowest)/185(current)  5'9'' (lost 45# before surgery)
Plastics 6/9/04 & 11/11/2005  Dr. King
www.albanyplasticsurgeons.com
http://www.obesityhelp.com/member/jamiecatlady5/
"Being happy doesn't mean everything's perfect, it just means you've decided to see beyond the imperfections!"
soulsister
on 7/4/08 1:02 am - NY
Wow! Thank you for all of the feedback! I don't have an appt. yet as I am waiting for Dr. Lelito's psych report.  I heard that the Drs. are also on vacation all next week-ughhh! How long to get an appt. with them after all of the paperwork is in? I am hoping soon!
dmshaw1979
on 7/4/08 5:27 am
Im sorry as soon as a I posted the last message I remembered you were still waiting on Dr. Lelito. Yes they were on vaction this week and will be back on 7/7/08 After all of your paperwork is in it will be about 3 or 4 wks to get an appt with them. I know it seems like forever, but it goes sooo quickly. Waiting is the hardest part!
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