Obamacare hits home ~

i've been noticing an odd thing Sue; at least it seems odd to me. You guys that support Obamacare tell sob story after sob story, but never address the high cost, waste and corruption that's guaranteed to be rampant in any government give away program. Why is that?

Kerry

Kerry,

Because it's no different than the high cost and corruption and waste in private business...except for WHO is ripping off the system and the nature of the system being ripped off.  As in, Wall Street.  Just as costly, just as corrupt, just as wasteful...but rich, white guys are benefitting so it's just "the cost of doing business," and not in need of regulation to stop it. 

So why do you anti-progressive people always want the waste, fraud and corruption stopped...but only in government?  Is getting ripped off by rich, white Wall Street types somehow less painful?

Sue

Because with private high cost, waste and corruption, you have the choice of whether or not you want to participate; it's called competition. There is no competition in government programs and no incentive for government bureaucrats to produce.

Big difference IMO.

Kerry 

Edit to add; and you still didn't answer my question.

You might want to watch your back, now...we have a lot of people here who collect government paychecks and I'd bet that some of them believe they ARE doing a good job!  And my Mormon friends tell me that LDS folks are very supportive of public schools...so I am guessing that you left your kids in the care of those government workers.  They seem to have done their part in helping you raise productive citizens.


Compettiion...schmompetition...I did not have the choice of whether or not to participate in the economic downturn--the result of corporate greed, not some imaginary government waste and corruption. Corporate greed has cost me money and I didn't have a chance to escape it...it ran over everything in its vicinity.  Corporate greed--being fed by the need to profit--has fouled the Gulf Coast.  Corporate greed and corruption that killed and damaged many people is why you know Erin Brockovich's name.  Corporate greed and the mandate to put profit above all else is the cause of many, many problems in this country.

Competition--and the vile behavior it produces--is a big part of the CAUSE of the dead and damaged people that corporations leave in their wake.  Competition and greed are why so many formerly American jobs are now located overseas.  That's patriotic?

In just a FEW years--I hate to remind you, but it's out there--you will be Medicare eligible.  You gonna turn it down?  And the Social Security Checks, too?  The bureaucrats in my local SSA office managed to process my claim for benefits and the (very tiny) checks get deposited every month.  I don't find them incompetent.  I mean there ARE examples of incompetent government workers and I've had to endure them just as everyone else has, but there are so many incompetent people at Anthem BC that I have my own private number to call to get someone with a brain to handle my claims.  Really.   Enron wasn't government fraud.  Worldcom wasn't government corruption.


I thought I *DID* answer your question.  Human nature and human behavior are pretty much the same no matter who is writing the paychecks.  In the corporate world, there is just as much latitude for greed and dishonesty as there is in government...it's just that in government, it's usually lower paid staff doing the stealing...and it's a lot less theft per person, if that counts for anything.  LOL

You're twisting what I said again. I said there is no incentive for government bureaucrats to produce. Where did I say that teachers or even government workers for that matter never do a good job? WHERE DID I SAY THAT?????

And so the economic downturn was caused by corporate greed? How so? Seems to me, the root cause was that Barney Frank and Chris Dodd forced the banks to lend money to people who had no way to pay it back, which caused the huge housing bubble and collapse. Not to say that the selling of junk bonds etc. which was done to try and mitigate the losses the banks knew would be coming was OK, it was not. But that was not the root cause of the problem; GGOVERNMENT MEDDLING in the housing market was the root problem.

And since you claim the Enron and Worldcom are the poster children for cooperate America and are evil to the core, it must follow that all their employees were also evil doers as well.

Like you said about government workers; there are some who are great people and they work hard at doing their job. But the fact is that government is much less efficient than the private sector and taken as a whole, Ill take the private sector any time I have the choice over a government run operation.

Now all of this is not to say that government has no role to play, clearly it does, but it's role is tightly defined in our founding documents and the very reason they are written the way they are. They are written to say that the government has no rights to do anything unless we the citizens grant the government that right. And the vast majority of the citizens do not want to give the government the right to take over our health care system. The idiot government leaders who rammed this garbage through will be run out of office this November and in November 2012.

Read the polls and see the doom headed your way:

www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/obama_and_democrats_health_care_plan-1130.html

www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_obama_job_approval-1044.html

www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/generic_congressional _vote-901.html


And bear in mind, that these polls as bad as they are for your progressives are heavily skewed toward Democrats. That's right, they are skewed because the polls use equal numbers of Democrats, Independents and Republicans and there are far fewer Democrats that there are Independent and Republicans.

Kerry

You never said that those people NEVER do a good job and I never said that you said that.  So stop accusing me of things I haven't done, please.


I was merely pointing out that many of us--pilots ike yourself for example, seem to think that only the government services that THEY need (schools, air traffic controllers and the NTSB?) are valuable and worthy of taxpayer support...and the services they don't need (medical care?) are not.  Why should some working poor stiff who doesn't own a car or an airplane or buy airline tickets supplement safe roads and safe skies for the rest of us?  Should ANY of us pay to help the people along the Gulf or are they just on their own?  Or should BP pay...and if that's the case, wouldn't that be part of massive government interference in private business?


I THINK you are saying that capitalism runs stuff better than government does and that government can't do a good job because of waste and corruption and all that.

And I THINK you think I'm saying, "no...government is good and private industry is bad."  That is not what I am saying.

I'm saying that human nature is human nature and it exists--for the good or the bad--in both private ventures and government.  There are crooks and greedy pigs everywhere.  I happen to believe that the lack of oversight in massive government ventures is the cause of the problems there and that the profit-at-any-cost motive is the cause of the problems in private industry.

You think I'm naive to believe that government can fix these problems  I think you're naive to believe that capitalism can.

I hear you repeating the philosophiy of the likes of Rand Paul, and yet you seem to differ with him on many of the finer points.

Corporate greed has brought us to the brink of having medical care for only a small percentage of our population.  Since the feds didn't get us into that mess, I'm willing to let them try to get us out of there.  I think anyone who expects the insurance industry to fix it is a damned fool.  They have NO incentive to make it good for anyone but themselves.

You never said that those people NEVER do a good job and I never said that you said that.  So stop accusing me of things I haven't done, please.

I never said anything about what kind of a job anyone does, I said that bureaucrats have no incentive to produce and they don't. If you want to argue they do, go ahead, but knock off the twisting.

I was merely pointing out that many of us--pilots ike yourself for example, seem to think that only the government services that THEY need (schools, air traffic controllers and the NTSB?) are valuable and worthy of taxpayer support...and the services they don't need (medical care?) are not.  Why should some working poor stiff who doesn't own a car or an airplane or buy airline tickets supplement safe roads and safe skies for the rest of us?  Should ANY of us pay to help the people along the Gulf or are they just on their own?  Or should BP pay...and if that's the case, wouldn't that be part of massive government interference in private business?

I don't recall ever saying anything about any of this; where did I say this?

But if you're asking what I think government should be involved in, I would have to think about that for some time because I've never really complied a list. But I will say that the founders were worried about government over reach and wrote the founding documents in such a way that the government has no rights or business doing anything unless we give them that right. Yet these days we are having all sorts of egregious mandates and nanny state over reaches perpetrated upon us the citizens. This is why you are seeing the outrage against incumbents today as well as the rise of the Tea Party. We the people know we are being screwed and we are not going to sit by and just let it happen.

I THINK you are saying that capitalism runs stuff better than government does and that government can't do a good job because of waste and corruption and all that.

Yes; and that government has no incentive to produce.

And I THINK you think I'm saying, "no...government is good and private industry is bad."  That is not what I am saying.

I'm saying that human nature is human nature and it exists--for the good or the bad--in both private ventures and government.  There are crooks and greedy pigs everywhere.  I happen to believe that the lack of oversight in massive government ventures is the cause of the problems there and that the profit-at-any-cost motive is the cause of the problems in private industry.

I agree with you; human nature is human nature and when there is no incentive to produce you don't produce, the more incentive to produce, the more you produce. This is not rocket science, it's a proven principle.


You think I'm naive to believe that government can fix these problems  I think you're naive to believe that capitalism can.

I think capitalism can do a better job of fixing them when it's properly motivated, the key is in getting government to do what it should be doing; motivating the capitalist to fix the problem.

Lets take one problem for instance; unemployment. Obama and the Democrats have spent and wasted over a trillion dollars in the guise of stimulating the economy, all the while doing everything they can to disincentivize small business which is the economic and employment engine of the country. Government meddling is never the answer to anything, government incentives do however work. This again is not rocket science, it's been proven over and over time and time again. Go back and see what JFK did to stimulate or incentiveize the economy and then look at what Barack Hoover-ville Obama is doing, it is not difficult to see what the problem is.


I hear you repeating the philosophy of the likes of Rand Paul, and yet you seem to differ with him on many of the finer points.

So?


Corporate greed has brought us to the brink of having medical care for only a small percentage of our population.  Since the feds didn't get us into that mess, I'm willing to let them try to get us out of there.  I think anyone who expects the insurance industry to fix it is a damned fool.  They have NO incentive to make it good for anyone but themselves. 

Nope, government meddling is what got us where we are and more government meddling is going to make it that much worse. And no, I don't expect the insurance industry to fix it, there is no way they can fix it, there is far too much government meddling for that to ever happen. For it to happen, the responsibility of health care has to be returned to those who use it so they can choose where and with whom to spend their money. The whole system is so screwed up right now that it does need a major overhaul, but what we got with Obamacare is just more and worse of the same meddling and bureaucratic interference.

Any time the consumer of any service or goods is removed from paying for that service or goods, then the consumer loses any incentive to choose wisely where to spend their dollars. And that is where we are today with what is known as heath care insurance, but is really just a bill payer clearing house. Real insurance works like auto insurance, where you insure against a big loss, but pay for the every day expenses; so called health insurance is something entirely different and would be like getting auto insurance that pays for gas, oil changes, tires and every other expense one would have in owning a car. That is not insurance.

If the system is ever going to be fixed, the responsibility first has to be shifted to where it should be; to the people who use and need medical care, that is what has to happen first.

I also understand that there will be some, that though no fault of their own cannot pay their own way, even if insurance is turned back into real insurance. For those; I think it would be wise to have a fall back government run or government funded system, separate from the system most of us would use. 

Kerry

You are talking in circles.  You insist you aren't saying what kind of a job people do...just that "bureaucrats" have no incentive to produce.  And that when there is no incentive to produce, people don't produce.  So actually you ARE saying something about the work people do.  But wait...

I think part of the problem here is that you are deciding what incentivizes everyone else.  For example, what was the incentive for you and you son to engage in the volunteer rescue work you did in Haiti?  I'm assuming--because I think you're a nice guy and probably raised a nice guy--that there was no ulterior desire for positive publicity on anyone's part and the incentive was that it feels good to do something for others.  For some people, it's a "good works" = heaven kind of thing...I don't know where you stand on that.  But if you and your kid saw people in need and wanted to do something about it for no other reason than they needed help...then there goes your rocket science claim. 

And...there are people who feel that way about their jobs.  I got paid more than some coworkers and less than others, but my incentive was doing a bang-up job.  I took pride in my work.  A bigger paycheck would not have made me a better worker and, since we could get by on DH's (IBEW negotiated) paycheck, I'd have shown up and done as good a job for half the pay.  Now I wouldn't do that in EVERY job I ever had...but there were jobs, the outstanding performance of which gave me great personal satisfaction.  And, a little over a year ago, a man I really didn't know well brought his wife and daughter into his work location to introduce them to me because--according to him--I have saved his behind on a number of occasions and if it hadn't been for me, he wouldn't have been alive to marry one of them and father the other.  (BTW...HIS political beliefs make you look like a flaming liberal...lol)  He didn't pay me a dime.  He acknowleged my work product as being worthwhile.  That was not my incentive at the time...who knew what he was going to say 40 years later.  My incentive was being really, really good at what I did.

I cannot make you see the light on the insurance question, because you refuse to connect the multi-million dollar ealaries and bonuses with the funerals for the insured who did not get what they had paid for.  And there are none so blind...

You are talking in circles.  You insist you aren't saying what kind of a job people do...just that "bureaucrats" have no incentive to produce.  And that when there is no incentive to produce, people don't produce.  So actually you ARE saying something about the work people do.  But wait...

I think part of the problem here is that you are deciding what incentivizes everyone else.  For example, what was the incentive for you and you son to engage in the volunteer rescue work you did in Haiti?  I'm assuming--because I think you're a nice guy and probably raised a nice guy--that there was no ulterior desire for positive publicity on anyone's part and the incentive was that it feels good to do something for others.  For some people, it's a "good works" = heaven kind of thing...I don't know where you stand on that.  But if you and your kid saw people in need and wanted to do something about it for no other reason than they needed help...then there goes your rocket science claim.

OK, I can see I didn't do a very good job of saying what I wanted to say. First, not all government employees are "bureaucrats" and many government employees do a great job and are motivated to do so because they care about what they're doing. However, the true bureaucrats I speak of are those who do just what I was talking about, they care only about advancing their position and production has nothing to do with advancing their position. They advance by seniority and by not making any waves. In the private sector this doesn't happen except in heavily unionized areas of the economy. For example, I've seen this sort of thing in the Las Vegas NV IBEW Locals, you just are not allowed to produce because it might make one of your "brothers" look bad.  

And...there are people who feel that way about their jobs.  I got paid more than some coworkers and less than others, but my incentive was doing a bang-up job.  I took pride in my work.  A bigger paycheck would not have made me a better worker and, since we could get by on DH's (IBEW negotiated) paycheck, I'd have shown up and done as good a job for half the pay.  Now I wouldn't do that in EVERY job I ever had...but there were jobs, the outstanding performance of which gave me great personal satisfaction.  And, a little over a year ago, a man I really didn't know well brought his wife and daughter into his work location to introduce them to me because--according to him--I have saved his behind on a number of occasions and if it hadn't been for me, he wouldn't have been alive to marry one of them and father the other.  (BTW...HIS political beliefs make you look like a flaming liberal...lol)  He didn't pay me a dime.  He acknowleged my work product as being worthwhile.  That was not my incentive at the time...who knew what he was going to say 40 years later.  My incentive was being really, really good at what I did.

I understand completely what you're saying and I agree with what you're saying.

I cannot make you see the light on the insurance question, because you refuse to connect the multi-million dollar ealaries and bonuses with the funerals for the insured who did not get what they had paid for.  And there are none so blind...

Meh, you just do not understand what I'm saying. I don't love the insurance companies; they are what they are, but they are what they are because of government meddling where it has no business meddling. In any profit driven venture there is going to be some greed, I wi**** were not so, but it's human nature so no matter what kind of venture you're going to talk about; if humans are involved there will be greed. And, there are more kinds of greed than just money greed, there is also power and control greed, something rampant in government run enterprises.

I understand and see plenty, but I don't think you really understand the depth of what I'm saying or talking about.

Kerry

I wonder how skinny this column will get if we just keep posting...


You are talking in circles.  You insist you aren't saying what kind of a job people do...just that "bureaucrats" have no incentive to produce.  And that when there is no incentive to produce, people don't produce.  So actually you ARE saying something about the work people do.  But wait...

I think part of the problem here is that you are deciding what incentivizes everyone else.  For example, what was the incentive for you and you son to engage in the volunteer rescue work you did in Haiti?  I'm assuming--because I think you're a nice guy and probably raised a nice guy--that there was no ulterior desire for positive publicity on anyone's part and the incentive was that it feels good to do something for others.  For some people, it's a "good works" = heaven kind of thing...I don't know where you stand on that.  But if you and your kid saw people in need and wanted to do something about it for no other reason than they needed help...then there goes your rocket science claim.

OK, I can see I didn't do a very good job of saying what I wanted to say. First, not all government employees are "bureaucrats" and many government employees do a great job and are motivated to do so because they care about what they're doing. However, the true bureaucrats I speak of are those who do just what I was talking about, they care only about advancing their position and production has nothing to do with advancing their position. They advance by seniority and by not making any waves. In the private sector this doesn't happen except in heavily unionized areas of the economy. For example, I've seen this sort of thing in the Las Vegas NV IBEW Locals, you just are not allowed to produce because it might make one of your "brothers" look bad.  


I have seen what you're talking about...but keep in mind that just like in private industry, the government greedy pigs also seem to work their way up the Peter Principle Ladder and then stop at their level of incompetence.  That's why I think there isn't much difference between the characters in these two "teams."



And...there are people who feel that way about their jobs.  I got paid more than some coworkers and less than others, but my incentive was doing a bang-up job.  I took pride in my work.  A bigger paycheck would not have made me a better worker and, since we could get by on DH's (IBEW negotiated) paycheck, I'd have shown up and done as good a job for half the pay.  Now I wouldn't do that in EVERY job I ever had...but there were jobs, the outstanding performance of which gave me great personal satisfaction.  And, a little over a year ago, a man I really didn't know well brought his wife and daughter into his work location to introduce them to me because--according to him--I have saved his behind on a number of occasions and if it hadn't been for me, he wouldn't have been alive to marry one of them and father the other.  (BTW...HIS political beliefs make you look like a flaming liberal...lol)  He didn't pay me a dime.  He acknowleged my work product as being worthwhile.  That was not my incentive at the time...who knew what he was going to say 40 years later.  My incentive was being really, really good at what I did.

I understand completely what you're saying and I agree with what you're saying.

I cannot make you see the light on the insurance question, because you refuse to connect the multi-million dollar ealaries and bonuses with the funerals for the insured who did not get what they had paid for.  And there are none so blind...

Meh, you just do not understand what I'm saying. I don't love the insurance companies; they are what they are, but they are what they are because of government meddling where it has no business meddling. In any profit driven venture there is going to be some greed, I wi**** were not so, but it's human nature so no matter what kind of venture you're going to talk about; if humans are involved there will be greed. And, there are more kinds of greed than just money greed, there is also power and control greed, something rampant in government run enterprises.

I understand and see plenty, but I don't think you really understand the depth of what I'm saying or talking about.

Kerry

I think I get the main idea, Kerry, I just view it differently.  I seem to have sharper vision than you for private industry greed and waste...and you seem to see the same problem in government better than I do. 

But I see a need for some other approach in insurance and student loans and mining regulations and oil drilling and and banking and so on.  They had free reign and went nuts.  I believe it's time to either better supervise them all or throw them out of the game.

But I don't expect you to see it that way.