Realistic Goals and Personal Responsibility

I needed a reality check just like this and I want to thank you for it. 

I believe the PM that started Diana's thought-provoking post was in response to something I had posted about hitting a plateau, and wondering whether this was the end of my weight loss or whether it was just my body (and mind) taking a break.

I started this journey weighing 420 pounds.   I am now down to 280 pounds, where I seem to be staying.  Yes, I have been eating more carbs this past month or so, and so it is no surprise to me that I haven't been losing weight.   I am not *****ing about this.  I posted out of curiosity re the experiences of others.

For me, 140-pound weight loss represents 50% EWL.  (Were I to lose another 140 pounds, I'd be at 140.  Fun with numbers.)  Not bad for 9 months.  And let me just say this -- I didn't just "coast" on the easy weight loss of the first few months.  Nope.  I wrote down every bit of food that entered my body for the first 5 or 6 months.  Every 3 calories of lettuce, every tablespoon of mustard, everything.  I made sure my carbs were under 20 grams the first few months, under 50 grams the next few months, under 100 grams in months 5 and 6 and 7.  And I continued working out with a personal trainer twice a week, and doing walking at least once more per week.  Sure, I could have exercised more.  But three times a week is not nothing.

Is it okay if I take a break now?  Hell yes!  I need it -- mentally and emotionally for sure, perhaps even physically.  Will I take control of my carbs again?  Probably.  Probably soon.

Would I regret having done the DS if I never lost another pound?  Hell no!  I feel FANTASTIC.  I am wearing a size 20 and 22 skirts, tops, dresses -- not bad for 280 pounds and 5'4".  (Thank you, muscle!)

And yes -- us short, Jewish, middle-aged women who went through the trauma of dieting starting at age 8 and for every year until adulthood lose less, or at least more slowly in the long run.  So be it.

I'm happy, I don't care to be judged or used as an object lesson.  Walk a mile in my shoes -- especially in the strappy new high heels I've been wearing.

Julie, I'm sorry if you feel judged -- but using you as an "object lesson" comes with the territory when you post openly as you have done.  You not only have agreed by posting to share your thoughts, but you are responsible for the result of those thoughts being posted.  As you well know, your positions on some things are controversial, including your opinion about who should be allowed to have WLS (essentially, only those who are SSMO, over 35 and who have major health issues) and you have not shied away from posting them.  You are therefore responsible for what happens as a result.

Your words in your post (Topic: Plateau: giving up or just taking a break?) caused enough concern that I was getting PMs asking about it.  Your experience has been rather at one end of a spectrum, so I was indeed using it as a reference point.  I tried to generalize the comments to make my point in this post, which I made separately from your post, but obviously you felt that it was aimed directly at you -- and you have confirmed that with this post.

I didn't have an opinion on whether it was OK to for you to take a break -- you are setting up a straw man argument, and I won't engage you on that.  You are free to take whatever course of action you feel comfortable with.  But when you scare people who weigh 400+ lbs that they might not be able to lose enough weight (whatever that means, which was one of the points of my post), then you have to take responsibility for what people say in clarifying what you have written.

I haven't judged where you are or how you got there.  In fact, my post was about the responsibility of making choices.  It is your choice whether you take a break, temporarily or permanently, from keeping your carbs low enough to lose weight.  It is your choice whether you are satisfied with the trade-off of getting to eat the way you prefer vs. losing more weight.  It is your choice to be happy at 280, or 250 or 180. 

That was my point.  Moreover, I don't know why you have chosen to post this specific information, and then take offense when it is repeated.  My point was that there are choices involved, because the DS isn't actually "magic" and in the setting of being SSMO, an older female, lots of starvation diets, being a revision, being Hispanic or black, more stringent carb control is likely to be required to maximize weight loss -- IF THAT'S WHAT YOU WANT.

And yes, us short, Jewish, middle-aged women who have been dieting since at least high school are more likely to lose less, or at least more slowly.  I rebelled at the low carb dieting myself, and only lost 85 lbs in the first year, nothing in the next two years, and only started losing again when for some reason, I lost a bit of my desire for carbs.  I didn't control them so much as they lost their power over me somewhat -- but that doesn't change the fact that NOT controlling them caused me to stop losing at 1 year out.  I take responsiblity for that as well.  I am very clear that being able to eat as I wanted after dieting since I was 13 was more important to me than maximizing my weight loss, and that I take responsibility for weighing ~170 now and not 150.  I think I COULD weigh 150 if I wanted to (especially if/when I get the 12-15 lbs of excess skin removed), but I don't want to badly enough and I'm OK with that.

I'm sorry if you feel like I denigrated your efforts and discomfort in the first few months when you were struggling to keep your carbs low.  When I referenced "losing weight effortlessly in the immediate post-op period," I should have been more clear that by effortlessly, I meant more getting immediate, steady, satisfying weight loss almost irrespective of what you were eating.  You posted many many times about how hard you found this -- again, I was generalizing rather than referring to you specifically, but I guess you didn't care for generalizing that either.

Just because I can, and because I feel you have accused me of "using you" rather unfairly, I have gone through some of your posts to document how your position about your goal weight and low carbing has changed over time, and that YOU have put it all out there on the DS forum, so I see no reason why it is not fair to discuss this on the same forum:

Post Date 6/17/08 2:53 am
Last Edit: 6/17/08 2:54 am
Topic: Impatience

Hi All,

My surgery date is in exactly one month, with Dr. John Rabkin.  I can't wait!

I'm feeling really impatient, though, about the prospect of losing over 150 pounds.  I weight over 400 and I see other "Super Duper Obese" people drop 100+ in 9-12 months.

I've typically been a slow weight-loser in the past.  I want to lose weight quickly, but I think that this impatience is unhealthy.

What is your experience with the speed with which you lose weight?  Why do so many people seem to stop losing around 18 months? 

Julie (who'd like to weigh a nice, svelte, 250 pounds!)

Post Date 8/10/08 4:04 pm
Topic: RE: This is kinda of stupid ... really it is.... lol..... ;)

Dear Alex,

I'm glad to hear that you are feeling like you have options.  If you're going to have WLS, then the DS is the best.

I want to address two of the things you said.  The first is about insurance.  Before deciding which, please make sure that there are no exclusions for WLS in either of them!  Depending on your employer and the policy, there may be.  Also, if you know what doctor you'd like to use, you might want to check whether he/she is a preferred provider in either plan.  Also, from the plan documents, you should be able to see what the requirements are for WLS -- such as BMI, dieting, etc.

As to feeling like you're saying goodbye to an old friend -- YES!!!   I can TOTALLY relate to that!  I felt that I was losing TWO good old friends  -- my fat/body image/personal power AND food.  I've always been fat, since I can remember.  I've never seen myself as thin, and, quite frankly, I doubt I'll ever be "thin" or "average" weight, even with the DS.  For me it's all about the health.

No matter what happens, I wish you the best of luck.

Julie

 

Post Date 8/25/08 4:01 pm
Topic: This "Diet" Is Driving Me Crazy!!!!!

I can't stand it any more!  The protein, the lack of carbs and sweets!  It's driving me nuts!  And I've been doing it only 5 weeks.  I go to the store and drool and start breathing heavily when I see sweets.  I yearn for bread, for potatoes, for cookies.  Don't even start me on ice cream!

How can I do this?  How can I stick with protein, with low carbs?  I can't seem to find any low carb bread (I'd love to have a bloody piece of toast).  Bagels are calling to me.  How can I keep this up for a year?  Or more?  Or the rest of my life???

I'm so unhappy right now.

Post Date 10/20/08 11:56 pm
Topic: RE: Questions about Carbs, Carbs v. Calories, Maximizing Weight Loss

Hi Kayla,

Thank you for that thoughtful and quite brilliant response.

For the first 3 months, I was doing what you were -- counting EVERY carb -- down to the 1 g in my tablespoon of low carb ketchup and the 0.1 g carb per romaine lettuce leaf.

I did the same thing when I was on Atkins years ago.  (At that time, I did no more than 20g net carbs per day FOR SIX MONTHS.)

I find that my body and my psyche are revolting against the strict limitations.  For right now, I am on vacation from that.  Today I ate 120g carb (gross, not net).  Notably, this is less than half of the "recommended daily allowance" of carbs (which is 300g a day).   For right now, I feel like I need to allow myself to do this.  I don't want to engage in a diet mentality, even if it means I'll lose less over all.

I'm pretty ambivalent about how much I want to lose.  I'd be happy to be under 250 pounds.  I'm 90 pounds away from that, and hope to achieve it within the next 9 months (so 10 pounds a month -- 2.4 a week).  I think that's doable while I'm eating more than 50g, as long as I'm not eating sugars and large amounts of carbs (which I guess I'd think of as over 100g daily).

I'm just blathering on now.  I'm happy that you are happy!  I'm happy that you're happy if I'm happy.  With this formula, you and I can be nothing but happy!

Post Date 10/29/08 11:40 pm
Topic: RE: What is a "normal" amount to eat at 3-4 months out?

Thank you for caring for me, Julie R.

I think that, for me, an optimal BMI may be around 35 or 40.  I'll be very pleased to be just a smidge under 250 (less than I weighed in high school!).

Cheers!

Post Date 11/29/08 10:56 pm
Topic: RE: Hi All, Question on Carb Totals & Weightloss Totals..

Hi Natasha,

At first, I was religious about carbs and protein (and I didn't care about fat).  My avg daily was right on the mark:  50g carb (including half-n-half, veggies, ketchup, whatever).  100g protein.  Probably about 90g fat.

I lost 59 pounds in the first six weeks.  Keep in mind, though, that I started at 420.

I've upped my carbs to about 100g a day (again, counting EVERYTHING) with my protein staying around 100-120 and fats around 100.

As of today (4.3 months), I've lost 102 pounds. 

I think alot depends on your beginning weight, in terms of how much you'll lose.  I see alot of folks who keep their carbs very low (50g/day) lose weight faster, or so it would seem.

Best of luck!

 

Post Date 12/23/08 7:40 pm
Topic: Feeling a bit down about weight loss

I know it's crazy -- after all, when have I ever lost 106 pounds in less than 6 months?

I've pretty much plateaud -- lost only 4 pounds in the past four weeks.  Plateauing at 315 isn't appealing to me.

Now I feel like I have to go back to "dieting".  I've been watching carbs so far, but not that strictly.  In other words, my upper limit was quite high (maybe 150 grams/day?).  Now I feel like I have to go back to 50g/day.  I hate this.  I resent it.  I have a little girl inside who is throwing a massive temper tantrum right now.  I want to scream.

The more I diet, the harder it gets to diet.

I don't know how to do this without driving myself insane.  I don't think I'd be satisfied staying at 315 or 300.  

I'm sure I'll lose weight again, that this is just a temporary plateau, my body just catching up, blah blah blah.  Yes, all true.  But the feeling sucks nonetheless.

I have my 6-month appointment in 3 weeks.  Everyone says that we lose half by 6 months.  I was hoping to be 120 pounds down by 6 months, since I'd like to lose AT LEAST 240 pounds total (which would leave me at a nice, round 180 pounds -- a weight I can be very comfortable with).  But I'm wondering if I'll make that, and what it really means if I don't make it.

I could really use some encouragement and supportive comments.

Thanks, all.  You make this journey so much better.  


 

Post Date 1/27/09 1:13 am
Topic: Big WOW -- made it to "Twoterville!"

Woo Hoo!  I'm in the 200s!  For the first time in --- damn, I can't remember.  15 years?  More?

Went for my 6-month physical.  Healthy except for some vitamin deficiencies and mild anemia.

Have lost 122 pounds so far -- right on track for my personal goal weight of 180.  Woo hoo!!!!!!!!!!!

I can't believe how well the DS works.  I have no regrets!

Post Date 5/6/09 10:49 pm
Topic: Plateau: giving up or just taking a break?

It's been 9+ months since my surgery last July.  I've lost around 150 pounds (from my high of 425).  In the past month, I have not been strict about my carbs.  I've been eating around 150-200 grams a day, mostly in the form of bread or potatoes, some veggies and fruit.  (Not so much sugar, which I eat rarely.)

I find that I'm able to eat a "normal" amount of food at a sitting--not very restricted.

My weight loss has pretty much halted -- at 275 pounds.  I'm not going crazy about this.  I feel really healthy and I'm not going nuts with dieting. 

Has anyone else had this experience, especially around 9 months to a year out, especially people who started off with a very high weight?  Did you get just tired and aggravated and irritated with "dieting" on the DS by that point?  Did you take a break, then get back to it?  How did you deal?

Sounds like Julie still has not learned an important lesson: If you publi**** on the forum, it's fair game for discussion.

Sounds further like Julie needs to quit her ******g whining. If she wants to eat lots of carbs, she's not going to lose as much weight. Simple fact. Either enjoy the carbs or lose more weight. It's pretty darned straightforward. This is not rocket science.

This is the lesson we ALL need to take from this thread, perhaps especially Julie: CHOICE CHOICE CHOICE CHOICE. The DS rules are few, but there ARE rules. Embrace them or not. Suffer the consequences if you don't, and inadequate weight loss is the TINIEST consequence of them all.

Diana, thanks for posting this, I always think its good to know what the odds are with anything that I do because it helps me to formulate a game plan if need be. So I can honestly say that after reading all of this, it just makes me more determined to work harder to get to my goal. I have a couple of strikes against me and I knew this going in. I have a lot to lose, I already have a failed wls under my belt and some studies show that African-Americans may not fare as well with wls. However, none of this is going to stop me from trying to attain my own personal goal. It just means that I need to be more diligent about not only what I put in my mouth but incorporating exercise in to the game early on.

When I first started reading this board, several people made comments about avoiding carbs and doing everything possible to get as much weight off as possible, within your wls window as you have plenty of time later to toy with the carbs once the weight is off  (I paraphrased a bit, but you get the message). This idea might not be for everyone, but I have always kept this in mind and know that this is one of the things that  I "will" have to do, if I want to reach goal or even come close. 

About 5 weeks ago, I started low carbing, I wanted to get into the habit of protein first early on, and while on this preop liquid diet, I really have been craving protein, chicken in particular. I also started exercising about 3 weeks ago, as a "preop."  I figured it would not only help to shrink my liver and hopefully boost my recovery time, but it sets a precedence for future exercise.I am already at the point where I like it, I want to do it and am eager to know how soon after surgery I can start up again.

I believe in the self-fulfilling prophecy but I also believe that I am the captain of my own ship and that I can make my own destiny and that is what I will do. If I reach goal, Glory for me! If I am shy a few pounds from goal and the scale never budges again, at least I know, that I gave it my best shot.

Charmed 

ETA: I had to change my original comments that being African American was a strike against me. I do not want that misconstrued as something that I believe.  I was just trying to say that regardless of the odds, I still plan to do what ever is  necessary to get as much weight off as possible.

Diana,

Thank you for bringing up and reminding us of the realities of WLS.

When I had the DS, I knew that I had a couple of strikes against me--short and a 53 BMI. So, I made the choice to low carb (around 30 g.) each day to maximize my weight loss. However, one of the things that are in my favor is my surgeon-- since his patients all seem to hit 90% EWL if not over 100%.

That being said, I also have to take responsibility for my words and actions in front of pre-ops and other post-ops. At our meeting a few nights ago, I allowed myself to get too hungry before eating dinner. As a consequence of this choice--and the YUMMY food--I ate too fast/too big of bites and had to excuse myself to throw up in the restaurant's bathroom. We had a pre-op (soon to be post-op) in our group that night and when I returned to the table, I explained that my having to throw-up was a direct result of my decisions previously listed.

Could I have blamed the experience on my small tummy and DS? Yes, very easily. Would that be the responsible thing to do? In no way. If I choose to ignore my personal choices and the affect they have on my weight loss journey, then I fail to learn from poor choices made and change my future choices to meet my desired results.

For me, getting to a 24.9 BMI is more important than consuming carbs. However, if for some reason I do not lose another pound, I will count myself a success (70% EWL.) I have resolved ALL of my pre-op health problems. The fact that I am in a size 14 is just another bonus. Do I "want" to stay where I am at? No, I want to reach my goals--"normal" BMI and a size 8. I will continue to do everything in my power to help ensure my "normal" BMI success.

If others choose to take a different path and not low carb/eat the needed protein/drinking enough fluids than that is their choice. However, take the responsibility of making these choices and don't ***** about not losing weight or making your goals.

Thanks Diana, as always, very informative and straight forward.

I consider myself 'one of the lucky ones' to be sure.  At 15.5 months out, I'm slightly below my personal goal at 137.5, and only 3.5 pounds above my surgeons goal.  If I should have a rebound of even 30 pounds  I would be just fine with that.  I'm one of those who doesn't obsess on the scale, and I decided when I chose to have surgery that I was never going to diet again.  My weight will be what it will be.  I've had more than my fill of dieting and self-loathing, punishing myself, and feeling like a failure.  That said, I have been very fortunate with the results of my DS.

I give complete credit to my surgeon for this.  He took all things into account when calculating the length of my common channel, and I think that has made all the difference.  He took into account my genetics, my hypothyroidism, my yo-yo diet history, my normal level of activity (we have to be honest with our surgeons about these things), and my lifestyle in general, not to mention the actual length of my small intestine.  I believe this has resulted in great success for me. 

I decided, pre-op, that I would eat what I want post-op, as long as I'm getting my protein and supplements in, and my weight will be what it will be.  And that is exactly what I do, BUT, the fact is that what I want to eat has changed.  Sweets just don't appeal to me the way they use to.  I find that things simply taste too sweet, way too sweet, so I will indulge, but after a bite or 2, I've had enough.  It's all working really well for me, and I couldn't be happier with what my life is becoming.  I do consider myself very fortunate.   

Okay, I can't stand it!

I have been waffling on whether to say something or not and I will say something and maybe get spanked for it.

I have heard a few times that "newbies" don't get to finger wag an "old timer" on this board without consequences so I guess I will just have to accept those consequences.

Elizabeth and Diana, you are such gems at helping out folks here. You regularly give awesome advice that is well thought out and very informative. But sometimes you guys are bullies. I didn't see Julie's post as "whining" at all. I feel like the woman can't make a move without a pile-on. Maybe she did "have it coming" for trying to talk folks out of DS Surgery (I saw that post of hers and I wasn't too impressed by it either). But she did take it back after suffering the wrath of many on here and it still wasn't enough. Elizabeth and Diana it's like you have to fight a campfire with a water cannon sometimes.

I don't know the full history of Julie's posts and maybe it would make a difference, but I doubt it. People make mistakes and fumble and life goes on.

You can call someone out on their transgressions without a pile-on. And for the record - I didn't see her post about stalling as anything other than personal and no transgression at all.

I really don't want to make enemies of either of you. Diana you are so smart and such an asset to have on the team. Elizabeth you have been around the block too and know your stuff. I just think that sometimes tough love is way more tough than love.

Susie

Bye bye.

No spanking or bullying -- just a clarification.  I think you (and Julie) missed my initial point.

I didn't see Julie's post a few days ago as whining either -- she was simply reporting where she was at now, and asking for people's feedback.  Nothing wrong with that.  However, in that post, she stated that (1) she was stalled at 275 or 280, meaning at 9 months, she had only lost 50% of her excess weight; and (2) that she was eating 150-200 g of carbs/day.  There were both public posts (for example Topic: Considering a second sleeve; Topic: Goal weight ) and PMs to me about the topic of inadequate weight loss recently -- some newbies were very concerned in particular about what Julie said -- that her situation was going to be their fate as well, and I wanted to clarify that from my point of view, she was making choices that was likely influencing her outcome, and that each individual has the ability to make their own choices. 

I was not criticizing her -- as I pointed out, I did much the same thing, although I had less weight to lose.  Julie is currently at 50% EWL at 9 months out, which is obviously behind the statistical curve (50% at 6 months), and she is eating a lot of carbs.  Res ipsa loquitur (I love to use legal Latin!*).  If she's OK with that (and her post indicated that she was struggling to figure out whether she was), and even if she isn't, nobody has any basis for criticism -- her body, her choice.  There was nothing about my original post that was critical of her choices, just pointing out the correlation.

Pointing out the relationship between these factors -- starting size, dieting/WLS history, age, and eating carbs -- and the need to understand the choices we make, as well as the choice of being happy about how we are living (NOT dieting, for example) and the size we end up at, was the reason for this post, and the reason for referencing her posts.

What I DID object to was the portion of Julie's post above, which essentially accused me of unfairly calling her out.  I do NOT see responding to her earlier post as unfair, especially given the public nature of it, and the concern it engendered.  Neither was referencing her many posts on this forum in the past, which establish the evolution of her feelings about both her goal weight and carbs.  Julie is also a lawyer -- and she is a litigator -- and she and I have clashed before.  I did not care for her mischaracterizing what I did and why I did it, and I do not see anything wrong with confronting her about it -- especially the attempted straw man argument (a common litigation tactic), where she mischaracterized what I said and then tried to discredit me on that basis.

Maybe she misread and misinterpreted what I wrote -- her feelings may be rather raw right now, based on what she wrote.  But that doesn't mean that I have to allow her leeway to attack me unfairly. 

And as you note, you are a newbie here -- I don't think you fully appreciate the nature of years of interactions on these boards.  Yes, I am sometimes rather blunt (some may say harsh).  That is my nature.  I don't blow rainbows and butterflies up people's asses in getting my point across.  I leave that to others.  More people appreciate my style than don't, and I don't have the time to work, rework, and modify my posts to make them palatable to all.  My feeling is, those who don't like what I write and how I write it can block me -- and quite a few do.  No skin off my nose (one of the few places I don't have excess skin). 

I usually try not to attack the weak or apparently vulnerable, but sometimes they don't seem to hear the truth stated nicely, no matter how many times they are told, and if they are being in my view a potential danger to themselves or others with their postings, I will occasionally get confrontational with them.  But almost NEVER until they have been told nicely by others and have clearly not listened.  Does that give me a reputation as a bully?  Perhaps.  I don't really care.  I know who and what I am, and I'm OK with that.  And I know that I can't make anybody feel any particular way -- that is yet another example of the choices people make.

So at this point, you have characterized me responding to Julie's misstatements about me, and Elizabeth's corroboration that she viewed them the same way, as "piling on."  You are free to view it that way, but I don't see it the same way.  Julie enjoys taking controversial positions -- or at least I assume she does, since she does it often.  She choses to make these postings, and engendering such discussions, so I assume she doesn't mind opening herself up to the answers she gets.  She (and anyone else *****ads them) can take the responses for whatever they are worth to them.  It's still all about choices.





* Res ipsa loquitur is a legal term from Latin meaning, "the thing itself speaks" but is more often translated "the thing speaks for itself." It signifies that further details are unnecessary; the facts of the case are self-evident.