HERE'S WHAT HAPPENED...
Wow, I'm overwhelmed (yet again) by your tremendous outpouring of concern and wonderful advice to my latest post (two year anniversary rally check in). So, let me throw this out to you, bring you into the loop of what has happened recently between Jim and me and I would ask you to please be frank with me in your response - am especially interested in hearing the guys' points of view; I don't know if I'm overreacting but this latest incident totally rocked me in terms of the person I think I am as opposed to how others view me. I'll try to be brief but would really appreciate your feedback. It's no surprise to this board that I've been sad about my marriage for a very long time. Years. I truly believe the problems stem from Jim's inability to get beyond his adolescent sensibility - despite herculean efforts on his part, he simply lacks the emotional skills to live his life as a mature, reasonable, responsible man. His childhood robbed him of the natural process of maturing - long story - and he simply has never, ever dealt with it. Consequently, he vacilates between projecting two very different personalities -- one is the mature man he so desperately wants to be and this is the man I am still in love with -- he is utterly devoted to his family, he is an incredibly hard worker, he is very intelligent (Ph.D. in music theory from the University of Michigan). This is the man that has kept me in the marriage. I love him. This is the man *****cently traced every single scar on my body with his finger and said quietly, "I am a part of this. I was at your side when you were cut here, and here, and here..." Unfortunately, this is the aspect of his personality that he constantly battles to have surface but it's the other side - the juvenile side - that is much more prevelant. I could list a litany of incidences that would prove my theory and each one is as troubling as the next. The latest incident is the one that rocked my foundation and has moved me to a new place. After three days of total silence between us, my locking myself in our bedroom and crying for hours and laying awake all night trying to figure it out - I called him at work and told him that this is it: he either brings all the garbage out in the open and deals with it with this therapist or I file for divorce immediately. I am so exhausted from harboring his secrets. We see the therapist tonight and these issues will be brought up and identified as the single most significant threat to our marriage. The latest incident - and this is where I need your advice (guys, please, please share your thoughts). My daughter, 17, is in her first very serious relationship with a terrific young man (can you imagine, he said to Jillian, "It would be my honor if you would be my girlfriend...") - Of course, I am very happy for her but this is a milestone and something I felt Jim and I should be able to talk about together as her parents. I feel we need to be able to share our thoughts, especially about sex and veneral diseases, HIV, teen pregnancy, all of it...I'm scared, ok? Jillian and I talk freely and I'm sure she will share with me when and if she feels she is ready for that kind of relationship. I digress. The INCIDENT: Saturday morning, when Jim was preparing to join Jillian in the barn to turn our horses out, I made the simple suggestion, "It might be nice for you to talk with Jillian about Ben (her new boyfriend) - try to express an interest, this is important to her." Well, apparently he went to the barn and told Jillian that "Your mother wants me to ask you about Ben. She's using me to get information from you." Jillian, of course, was upset and basically told Jim, "I've told mom all that I'm every going to tell her." Here's the thing -- I don't have a covert bone in my body! I am a very forthright, honest, sensitive communicator (I think, but maybe I'm wrong) and if I need answers to questions, I am perfectly capable of asking the questions myself. My suggestion to Jim was altruistic - I only meant to encouarge him to show an interest in this very important stage of Jillian's life. He turned it into something ugly. I don't believe it was intentional...it never is. He just operates from this very immature perspective because he was never allowed to grow up as a kid. So that's the jist of it. I feel incredibly hurt and betrayed; I feel like I will never be able to have the adult, mature relationship with this man that I crave; I feel like I am constantly having to put out fires and do damage control; and I'm just plain sick of it. Thanks for letting me explain. I know this is long but please let me know your thoughts - you are the wisest, most caring group of people I've ever known. Love, Maureen
Well, I'll throw in my two cents worth and you can take it for what you will. I won't comment so much on who your husband is or isn't, but will comment on what may be some justification.
First, I am the father of three girls. None of them are of dating age. but the relationship they have with their mother is vastly different then the relationship they have with me. While I'm a very hands on father, I do believe my daughters would have troubles talking with me about a boy in their life. I'm already very upfront with them regarding how they should expect to be treated and I'm hoping to instill in them the confidence to be able to not get walked on by anybody, especially a boy. Anyway, he is probably looking for an icebreaker to try to get his daughter to open up to him. So he does the easy thing, he seeks out a common foe, which happens to be you. Not saying it is right, but I can see the use of the tactic.
Secondly, I think it is difficult for a man to see his daughter with another man. He is used to being the one to whom she seeks protection and other things and it would be hard to be replaced. Plus, men know what it is like to be a young man and what is on their mind. Hey, I did my best Eddie Haskell for parents all the while thinking of what I wanted and hoped to do to their little girl. I once had a friend tell me that it was hard to see his daughter go off with a young man know what he had in mind, but it was even harder for him to think that his daughter wanted him to do it. It is hard to deal with the feeling that you are sending your little girl out there to deal with the wolves.
The reality of all of this is that you are a very changed person. While you have frustrations about your husband, he too may have some frustrations about who you are and who you have become. I know I have changed radically not only in size, but in mind. My wife and I have issues and we try to talk about them. I mentioned to her just the other day that I was tired of being behind the kids and her mom on the priority list and that if she didn't start working on our relationship, we were headed for problems.
I hope this helps, and I wish you the best of luck.
Maureen;
I'm not particularly comfortable discussing the realationship issues of others, especially when I'm only getting one side of the story. With that said, you wanted input from the guys, so here goes:
I'm not sure how you measure maturity especially when discussing the human male. All we really are is big kids. When dealing with a man, you must realize that the little boy is never far below the surface. To me, maturity means knowing when to slap the muzzle on the little guy and take care of business like a proper adult.
In the example, you posted, I agree that Jim's behavior was not helpful at all. I suspect that he resented your having "pushed" him into talking to your daughter about a subject he was not comfortable talking about with her. To you, I'm sure that you didn't feel that you were pushing him at all, but I'll bet that that's the way he felt. Many men are not comfortable talking about relationship issues with their daughters. I can talk about most things with my girls, but, obviously they can open up easier to their mom on some issues. Actually, in my case, the immature side has it's uses too. My girls are 17 and 20 and caught in that zone between the child and adult world. Sometimes, the goofy, little boy dad can relax things and allow me to communicate on a different level with my girls. I have also been able to have some deep, adult conversations with them. It doesn't sound as if Jim is comfortable doing this and maybe he shouldn't if he's going to say the wrong thing at the wrong time. It may not be necessary for him to be able to discuss every issue with your daughter, but I agree that he needs to involve himself. He needs to find some comfortable level of communication with her.
As for any other issues that you may have, I just don't have enough information to render an opinion. I would like to add a big "ME TOO" to what Ken said about the fact that Jim has had to go through as many changes as you have in dealing with the "new you"!! I don't know how to advise you on how to proceed other than to encourage you to go as far as you can with the therapist before making any final decisions. No matter what, my friend, know that we are all here for you.
Mike
As I read some of these answers, I have to agree with them (although I am not a guy.)
Since I am newly married, one thought that has come to mind is this:
(and I want to relate it to my situation). Alton is 61. He is a talker. He tells the same stories over and over to each new person he has met since I met him. I had to think about this. I came to the conclussion, that Alton has been this way all of his life. It is part of who he is, does it make me love him less.....no. His daughter and I discussed this about him while we were in Tennessee. I have to let Alton be who he is...I cannot put him in a box just like I could not be put in a box. Be it right or wrong, you have to decide if you can allow your husband to be who he is.....with you or without you. Can counseling help? Maybe..maybe not. Only time will tell. It seems, as the guys have said earlier, you have changed, as we all have.
Now what I did do, was discuss it with him, admitting it is who he is but sometimes, things need to be cut short due to time constraints, so we made up a way of communicating with each other. Maybe in your counseling sessions ways to help each other can be worked out. I wish you well my friend, I know it is not easy. Remember this too, as long as you have children, your paths will continue to cross, married or divorced.
Hi Honey, sorry to hear you are having some problems. I think that what has already been said by the brave men on this post is very true. Men have trouble thinking about any other man being with their little girl. They also have a terrible fear of losing that little girl as little girls are easier to talk to than grown up women. Therefore; I am afraid he played the "Mom Made Me Be the Badguy Again card." It is unfortuneately one of those things some guys do as a coping strategy. That being said, I agree it has to be painful that your daughter thinks you sent her Daddy to get the inside story. As you've already said you have a very open relationship with your daughter, tell her the truth. I am sure she is mature enough to understand. And, I am betting(though I have been wrong before) that this strategy has been played before. I know my Dad always wanted my Mom to be the disciplinarian and my DH sometimes tries it too. That way they get to be best buddy and you get to be Mom. It is obvious that you really love him. Love is a hard thing to throw away. Something that you have to learn in this life is that noone else's actions can be owned by you or should be put upon you. We do enough stuff to feel guilty about all on our own. Give this one back to him and make up with both of them. Counseling can sometimes do great things, sometimes it can't. Just be prepared to make up your mind what you really want on your own. My support and prayers are with you as always. Luv, Crissie
You all are terrific, thanks. Ken and Mike, I really want to thank you both for sharing the male perspective on this. Can it be true that the road to marital bliss (is there such a thing?) is paved with the pages of that little book, "Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus" -- is it possible for the genders to ever really understand each other? At any rate, thanks so much, it took guts to share what you shared and you did it to help me out. I'm indebted to you -- all of you. Love, Maureen
Well, I have read the book and while I don't agree with all of it, I do have to agree that there are two ways to get to the same point sometimes. I often have to ask my wife to walk me through her thought process to determine how she reached her conclusion. We often get to the same point, but on two different directions.
The other thing Mike brought up that is so true is that men are like puppies. We constantly have to fight the urge to be a little boy again. For some, the little boy is pretty deep and easy to control, for others it is boiling up all of the time.
Hang in there, and you don't owe me a thing.
But why is that???? Why do women grow up easily enough while men have such a difficult time of it??? I truly believe this is the single most significant reason couples split; women end up managing all of the responsibilities of the household....the money, the kids, the juggling of every little nuance of daily domestic living, and men just let them do it! How can we reconcile this???